[flash]

are you serious?



i'm not going to do ANY testing - i have built it to the specs that PCA and SCCA have determined meet the rollover needs based on the vehicle weight



nobody tests rollbars on purpose



if you would like me to test it, send me $25,000 USD, and i will have it done - then i can go and buy another car, stick it in, and flip it



you should probably buy an autopower

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[Anchorman]

Hold on a minute, Flash. It shouldn't cost anywhere near $25,000. After all, once you've rolled the car, you'll be able to reap the revenue from parting it out. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

funny - that's a lose/lose proposition though - no way could i make a dime parting out a car if i had to take it apart - i'd have to pay myself or somebody else - then i'd need storage space for the car - then i'd need to dispose of the dead and useless parts - i only planned for the purchase, the track time, and a stunt driver - even at that, i only planned for a basket case, barely running car - not much to part from



ok - make that $45,000 USD - that should do it



gee, maybe that's why nobody does it?

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[flash]

as an alternative, you can always come out here, pay for the track time, and i'll be happy to flip your car for you, at no risk or liability to me, and tell you how it went - bring a flatbed to take the wreck home

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[BruceWard]

Flash,



Testing would be expensive, I doubt $25K but expensive. The question is whether or not it could be accomplished at a reasonable added cost per roll bar.



A broken or otherwise damaged Cab should be able to be acquired for <$10K and possibly <$5K. Then the question is how to test it. Dropping from a crane might be a good test. There are lots of possibilities of how the test could be carried out, unfortunately one car probably means one test.



WIth all your TV connections could you get a TV show on roll bar testing, or get a 968 used for a stunt with the bar installed?



Hopefully none of us will ever find out what happens when your roll bar hits the road!



I am still looking forward to the opportunity to complete my purchase.

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[flash]

sonce rolling is the real test - rolling the car would be the only real way to do it - even then, controlling the conditions would be incredibly difficult and measurement as difficult



that is why NOBODY tests rollbars - the scca specs (the strictest ones out there) are decades old - this is a no brainer - there is no need to test the bar



since you have such concerns, i recommend purchasing the autopower bar - it has been out there for a long time - it isn't pretty, but it works - it is pretty clear that you are looking for something specific, albeit esoteric, that i am not going to be able to provide you, regardless of specification, design, or quality



i have no doubts that the race-spec bar will withstand any rollover - however, the DE bar, while substantial, and meets DE needs, is NOT intended for competition, but rather the compromise bar for those who want a street car with a bar and no compromises in function of the ancilary items of the car - that's why the race bar is an optional add-on to the DE bar that upgrades it to race spec



we all know that you compete the car - knowing that, i would not recommend the DE bar for you, and would not, in good conscience be able to sell it to you - i would insist that you purchase the race bar



full information on the options will be forthcoming

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[BruceWard]

we all know that you compete the car - knowing that, i would not recommend the DE bar for you, and would not, in good conscience be able to sell it to you - i would insist that you purchase the race bar

Perhaps I am being punished for suggesting the bar could be tested?



As I have said many times before I look forward to purchasing the roll bar. I hope to choose the exact specs based on what most fits my needs.

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[flash]

bruce - it's not a case of being punished, but clearly i cannot make you understand that roll bars are not tested



this bar is clearly not for you - you should invest in something that is specific to your needs, by a fabricator you trust - either you don't understand how roll bars are built (as indicated by the questions regarding testing that NOBODY does) or you have needs that are beyond my ability to make you comfortable - in either case, this is not a good match



i would rather steer clear of a situation that would certainly only be frought with complication



if i were anybody else, you wouldn't be even asking these questions - i don't need to do this project at all, beyond my own bar, and am only building them for those who want one with the clear understanding of what it is - i will not get into a back and forth



please seek another vendor



to the rest of you out there, i apologize for this dialog being held here

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[BruceWard]

Flash,



My questions about testing the roll bar are nothing more than wondering if it could be tested. I have not made a single derogative comment about your roll bar design?

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[flash]

i understand that - i didn't say you made any derogatory remarks or anything of the kind



i think you are looking for something that is beyond my ability to satisfy you - i want everybody to be happy - i would rather not sell someone something and let them look elsewhere, than have them buy something from me and not be happy



as with the chip, you have concerns, warranted or not, that are beyond anyone else - to meet these concerns, i think you need to seek another vendor - i don't think i can do it



there will be no testing on my end - i'm not interested in spending the time or resource - i am satisfied with meeting the requirements of the appropriate sanctioning body, for each version of the bar, in its respective intended use - this is industry standard for roll bars and harnesses - there is no warranty, implied or otherwise, and there is no liability borne on the part of the manufacturer or retailer - just read the labels on any of these kinds of products

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[rustech]

Flash, easy tiger. I don't think he was poking at you (this time <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/tongue.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> ). You have to expect there to be some concern regarding any new bar that hasn't been out there yet. If you recall, I had some concern regarding the mounting points, but we both agreed, that since the force (hopefully never) is not excerted in a direction that would "lift" the bar, that it is VERY structural and rigid. I certainly was not aware that there was no strength testing for any other bar, but upon seeing your design, and comparing it with autopower, your's has a few benefits in strength design over the autopower, such as the small crown in the center. I would not dictate which bar is purchased by anyone for if the bar that is purchased fails, that is true liability. Don't let your "conscience" get involved.

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[flash]

i was tired of repeating myself - i understand his concern - i cannot and will not be able to address it - i don't think the question would have been asked of anybody else though - he doesn't trust me - that's fine, but i'd rather he bought from somebody else and was secure and confident, than from me and not - you have to be able to trust the car when you're out there, and, at this point, i don't see that happening with this bar and him



i will always let my conscience get involved - sorry - just built that way - i'd rather give stuff away, as i have in the past, than sell something that somebody doesn't like

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[memphoman]

For what it's worth: Bob Buckmaster is the former president, and currently the DE chair for our chapter of PCA. He also is an instructor and races his very bad ass last-of-the-air-cooled 911's. I sent this thread to him, and here is his unofficial response. Please don't harass Mr. Buckmaster regarding this. I just wanted y'all to see his response to my inquiring if this is legit and will meet the standards everyone is concerend about:



Begin forwarded message:



From: Bob Buckmaster

Date: June 22, 2005 10:43:46 AM CDT

To: 'Michael Guthrie' <mguthrie@mac.com>

Subject: RE: If you have a minute



First of all, it took more than a minute! Second, it looks nice. That dude

should be commended for all the work he has done. It seems legit to me.

IIRC, as long as it is made out of the proper thickness tubing and bolts

"directly" to the car, it will be o.k.

Bob

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[968gene]

That should about do it...

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[SILVY968]

[quote name='flash' date='Mar 8 2005, 02:50 PM']it looks like i finally found a fabricator for the cab roll bar - i have a meeting with him at noon tomorrow



preliminary indications are that we will have a bar that allows for:



true bolt in application

full clearance for seat reclining

no cutting of side panels

no drilling in chassis

full utilization of factory windscreen

full function of top

full compliance with SCCA and PCA for DE events



pricing looks like it might come in just under the autopower - availability looks like the first part of april - all transactions will be directly with the fabricator - i'm just doing the design work and getting this going



i need to compile the list of interested parties



please email me asap so i can make this happen

[right][post="1521"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

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[flash]

um - am i missing something here? you reposted the first post, but was there supposed to be something else?

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[Bill]

Flash Count me in , Ohio Bill











[quote name='flash' date='Mar 8 2005, 03:50 PM']it looks like i finally found a fabricator for the cab roll bar - i have a meeting with him at noon tomorrow



preliminary indications are that we will have a bar that allows for:



true bolt in application

full clearance for seat reclining

no cutting of side panels

no drilling in chassis

full utilization of factory windscreen

full function of top

full compliance with SCCA and PCA for DE events



pricing looks like it might come in just under the autopower - availability looks like the first part of april - all transactions will be directly with the fabricator - i'm just doing the design work and getting this going



i need to compile the list of interested parties



please email me asap so i can make this happen

[right][post="1521"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

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[flash]

please send me an email - i can't keep track easily by any other means

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[BruceWard]

I was in, until I got kicked out <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Flash you have my email, and I am still hoping to have one of these, probably the DE version soon.

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[BruceWard]

Since it is a topic that I am unfamiliar with I ran a google search for "roll bar testing" found these two links in the first page of search results;



http://www.teammiata.com/mall/Boss_Frog_Roll_Bar.asp

And speaking of no compromising, to ensure that the bar would be up to protecting us and our loved ones as well as you and yours, a destructive test with the roll bar installed in a Miata was conducted (scratch one Miata!). Following the intent of both SCCA and FIA guidelines during the test, three simultaneous loads, 7.5G vertical, 5.5G front, and 1.5G side, were applied with a combined load of over 13 tons. The roll bar passed the destructive test with flying colors. The roll bar stayed completely intact, with nearly zero deflection. The car body bent right behind the door jamb, but the roll bar and cockpit area was perfect. A registered engineer witnessed the test, and has issued a report of his findings. In short he concluded that the Boss Frog Double Hoop Roll Bar  meets the intent of both SCCA and FIA specifications. 

and



http://www.ist.org.uk/anti_roll_bar.htm

IST 's anti-roll bar fatigue testing machine is used for the sample testing of production batches to test the end result of your design, manufacturing and quality control processes.  It can also be used to predict the performance of any new developments e.g. design changes or manufacturing changes.

* I searched for this information purely for my own education and post here only to share the information without any intent to criticize the Flash designed roll bar which do intend to purchase with or without testing.

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