[flash]

i've looked at this very carefully - it's not as easy as you think - it's not a retrofit - it is a completely new design



as it stands now, there is no housing the correct shape - somebody will need to make a "cup" for the lights to fit into or up to - this cup will need to exactly match the inner profile of the opening and house at least the faces of the lights - then it will have to be reflectorized - mounting mechanisms added to the the cup, and connecting to the sheetmetal of the fender somewhere (connection to the motor busket won't work, as each fender fits differently) - this connection would also need to handle a short duration high high frequency high g load - further, adjustment access would need to be provided



then of course, the lens will have to be made - to look right, this lens would fit into the outer "diameter" in the sheet metal, which is a good distance outward and larger than the inner diameter (the mounting of the cup housing) - provision would need to be made for removeability of the lens for cleaning, as it sits up against a painted surface, and does not actually connect to the cup housing - this would mean either adding some sort of mountings to the sheet metal, or adding a rearward protruding flange that would reach to the cup housing



while i can see how it could be done, and could probably design it without too much effort (after all, that is what they sent me to college to learn to do), the cost of the housings will be high - to get a lens quality item, with a housing that works, you are probably looking at about $750 in a minimum quantity of 20 pairs of units, not counting lights



these lights would not be legal anywhere a lighting inspection is required, primarily due to the DOT requirement on the lens, which would be extremely cost prohibitive



by all means, have at it, but i think you will find that it is a LOT more involved than you think



put me down for a set if you figure it out



pretty sure i still have a dead fender here i can donate to the project too

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[Anchorman]

I'll check the condition of the light I have - I haven't looked at it in quite a while. I'll let you know - and, if you're serious about looking into the conversion, we'll do it.

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[saxman]

bob, you're making this WAY too difficult.



Remember the 'ol addage, KISS... keep it simple stupid!





anyway, what you're talking about is a replacement for the headlights. I can tell you're picturing making a bucket, and a lens that connects to the fender, etc... something like what the track 968's out there are using.



What I'm discussing is not a replacement for the headlight assembly. It's a modification to the headlight assembly.





Walk up to your car, and touch the headlight. That glass lens is what I'm talking about replacing. ONLY the glass lens. Nothing is being added, etc. Absolutely no modification to any of the body panels would be needed, etc.



The bucket I was discussing earlier IS the stock headlight. There's absolutely no need to design and produce a new housing... porsche already made one.



Let me draw some pictures... to be continued!

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[saxman]

please excuse my craptacular drawings and handwriting





pretend this is a cut view of the headlights we're discussing... on the left, the stock headlight, up in the on position... on the right, the retrofitted headlight in the stock down position







Basically, you're mounting the projector into the stock headlight, so that it is properly aimed when the headlights are in the down position. You still have the oem headlight there, it has just been modified.







to further show how the two relate, here's a simplified exploded view... on top, the stock headlight, on the bottom, the modified headlight.





The stock headlight is made of 4 basic parts.

The lens(the fluted glass piece on the front)



the "bucket" as I'll call it(the chrome piece inside the headlight that reflects the light from the bulb... when one adjusts a headlight, you're moving this bucket around inside the headlight)



the "housing"(which is basically the part of the headlight that mounts ot things... what you touch when you pick it up, etc



the bulb(H4 in this case)







In the solution I'm discussing, most of this is all retained.



The lens gets replaced, by a clear, non fluted part. This is a direct replacement for the lens on the stock headlight, it's just not fluted. Same shape, size, etc. Mounts in the same places, touches all the same parts, etc.



The projector is either mounted directly into the housing, or into the bucket. I like mounting projectors to the bucket because you can retain all of the stock adjustment points and mechanisms, and the chrome bucket serves as a great starting point for the trim pieces. In this case, because the projector would have to be mounted at such a different angle than the stock bulb, it's much more likely that a new mount/adjustment mechanisms would need to be used. The stock bucket still likely would be cut up to be used as part of the trim. Hard to say until you get in there.



The stock housing will remain pretty much unchanged. May have to drill some holes in it to allow for adjusters or different mounts, but pretty much the same.



The bulb now mounts inside the projector itself, instead of onto the housing like in the oem configuration. Changes for H4 type to either D2s or D4s, depending on the projector used.







Hopefully that helps clarify what I'm discussing. If not, I'd be happy to further explain.





As for the legality of this all, yes, for the most part it wouldn't be. It is plenty possible to use the Hella 90mm projectors as earlier posted in this thread by anchorman, which are DOT compliant, however, there is some debate about the legality of mounting them inside a headlight assembly. I don't see the difference between directly mounting them to a bumper, and inside an aesthetic housing, but last time I spoke with some from the nhtsa regarding this, there was some debate.



That said, you're taking oem parts and putting them together in an oem appearing manner. With the exception of issues during inspections, the chances of having any legal issues are nill. The risk is yours though.





Flash, I appreciate the offer of the dead fender, but a lot of the point here is to use a stock headlight, and have everything self contained. Shouldn't be any need to do any body work.



I know that in the back of someone's mind, they're not liking this idea because it doesn't solve the weight issue of the pop up headlights. No reason some creativity couldn't be used to replace the stock pivoting mechanisms with a rigid mount. Personally, that's not a huge concern of mine, but it could be done.







Obviously, there are tons of details to work out here, I'm just trying to explain the train of thought I'm on, because I know others aren't following along with what I'm saying. Hopefully this will help clarify.

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[Anchorman]

Saxman - I get what you're talking about. For me, that would be a fine result. Tomorrow I'll be where the extra headlight is and I'll check that it's OK.



As far as inspection goes - your concept would allow stock headlights to be swapped in/out, if necessary, to pass inspection. A bit of a pain, but certainly worth the result.



If my headlight is good - are you on board?

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[flash]

i looked at this when it was first suggested a couple of years ago (i had an extra fender and broken headlight sitting around from a boo boo) - here is what i came up with for answers:



first off, the OEM headlight is a semi sealed unit - that would require removing the lens from the bucket - anybody who has had clouded lenses and tried to clean them can tell you that it isn't going to be easy to get that thing off - then you have to figure out how to install the new one so it is removeable, because if you aren't going to use glass, it will have to be removeable for cleaning, as it will gas cloud over time, as well as likely leak



second, i am pretty sure it is a 3 piece and not 4 piece unit - i do not think the relflector separates from the bucket - i think they reflectorized the inside of the bucket, glued the lens on, and then stuck the bulb in the rear



third, if you do successfully get it apart, i'm pretty sure there is not enough room for the beam - based on the shape and angle of the bucket, it would certainly be an odd pattern, as it tries to pass over the front lower lip of the bucket, but at the same time can expand to the top lip - i guess a new reflectorized/focusing insert could fix that though - you would have to cut an opening and mount the light in the rear surface of the bucket, and not have it sitting inside the bucket - from every projector i could find, there just isn't enough room for the entire fixture to fully sit in there - sketch it out to scale, and you'll see what i mean



fourth, what about the high beam? does this not require 2 projectors to work and have both beams?



fifth, the lens itself is the DOT problem, not the light - there are certainly a few DOT approved projectors out there - however, the lens must be DOT approved to pass inspections - even those aftermarket perspex covers that many cars have are not legal, and must be removed for inspections - heck, even the stoneguard stuff hangs up a lot of people



the gaps around the headlight will be an aesthetic stumbling block for many - if the headlight does not pop up, i would want the new one to completely fill the area, and not look like somebody goofed - that is actually one of my big gripes about the whole mess - i've spent a lot of time and effort working on the aerodynamic gaf of that gap (and had some success at improving downforce and drag issues), and would really prefer it be closed off completely



yes, the weight would be the main reason for doing it for me - i almost never drive at night, so the pop up part is of little concern - for me, it is all about dropping the 30 lbs of hardware, and getting rid of all the loose parts in there that require constant cleaning and maintenance - the motors are only about a third of the weight to be lost - it's all the sheet metal, supports, and plastic housing pieces that make up the rest - these would have to remain for your plan, and the biggest concern to me



if you come up with a flush mounted twin bulb fixture that doesn't get dirty inside, allowing me to delete all of that hardware, i'm in - we don't have headlight inspections here, so the lens legality is moot for me



however, sorry, but what sounds like it amounts to a cobbled together single bulb insert in the oem headlight is not something i am looking to do - i've already seen such inserts of a sort on a couple of race cars, and they function fine, since they need only low beams, and they succeed at losing the weight, but it looks pretty cheesy



but, have fun and good luck - i'm still happy to help any way i can

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[saxman]

most headlights are semi sealed units... you'd be surprised how easy it is to get around this. Pop the headlight in the oven for a few minutes, and it will melt the glue holding the lens in place sufficient enough to easily remove the lens.



Nissan sells new sealant specifically for headlights and tail lights. Same stuff used in all the lights, you can just go to the dealer and get some, so re-sealing to the same level as the oem lights is not an issue.



I HIGHLY doubt that the reflector assembly is fixed in place. I've NEVER seem a headlight done this way, and you should see the pile of discarded headlight remains I have laying around. If not, no worries, it doesn't really make things any more difficult here, just requires a slightly different method of mounting.



As for the size... that's something that will require some looking at, but I'm sure something can be made to work. It may complicate things a bit, and I'd need to get in there to look at it, but there's a solution around these things. Projectors do come in a huge variety of sizes.



High beams... simple solution. Use a bixenon projector. High beams and low beams in the same projector. The shield inside the projector is hooked to a solenoid... flip the high beams, and it moves out of the way.

One bulb is all that is needed.



the gaps around the headlight could probably be addressed with some creativity in fabricating a new lens... but I'm not sure if it's a route I want to go down. I'd have to look at it with the lens off, and go from there. I guess in this case, having an extra fender around would help, just to help make it fit to the fender.







Weight wise, I don't really know what's all in there, so it's hard for me to say what could be saved. The weight savings, while nice, is a secondary issue for me. I know for others, this plays a bigger part.



In the end, this isn't the cheap, easy solution everyone would like, but it is a bit more feasible, and certainly would remove any need for body work.

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[flash]

well, you've got a broken one now, why not take it apart? - i had a broken one, and the backshell sure looked like one piece to me - all of my old headlights were one piece backshells - haven't pulled one apart though in probably 15-20 years



but, before doing any of that, i'd do some scale drawings - i think you are going to run into geometry problems



nice to know there is a dual pattern unit though - that makes it at least possible



the more i think about it though, the more i think about 996 lights

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[saxman]

as soon as I have an extra light in hand, I'll get right on taking it apart. In the mean time, I don't want to take the light off of my car when I need it every day.



Scale drawings are a bit difficult without a headlight in hand to do drawings off of. Remember though, there's no reason the projector can't stick out of the back of the housing if needed.



I like the look of the 996 likes... but I don't think I'd like them on a 968. Just wouldn't flow with the shape of the car quite right, and I'm not a big fan of light conversion like that. To each their own though, and if that works for you, then by all means.

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[flash]

understood



i was looking at the photoshop that a guy here did, and it looks pretty danged sweet to me with the 996 lights - obviously i would have to see it in real life, but it's encouraging

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[saxman]

[quote name='flash' post='41413' date='Sep 19 2007, 03:34 PM']understood



i was looking at the photoshop that a guy here did, and it looks pretty danged sweet to me with the 996 lights - obviously i would have to see it in real life, but it's encouraging[/quote]

it's not a bad look... just not for me.



Coming from the honda crowd, where people are much more inclined to do light conversions and such, I've developed a foul taste for those conversions.



I'm sure if you did it, the work would be impeccable though.

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[flash]

lol - thanks for the vote of confidence, but i am far from able to do this myself



i get that what i am thinking is not for everybody - as i said, i think i am the only one i know that prefers the 996 lights over the 997 lights



if i attack this, it will be a part of a larger rework of the 968 lines - i plan to delete the ridges all over the car, smoothing them into curves, and reverse the concave hips



at any rate, good luck with this - i'm happy to relate the results of all the mock up work i did trying to work this out - i tossed out all the small parts though, as none of them worked out anyway, and it didn't seem logical to pack them and move them here, but maybe i can save you a couple of steps

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[saxman]

as you've been in there many times before, let me ask a couple questions...



how much room is available behind the headlights? meaning if I pulled the headlight out all together, could I stick my arm into the fender?



Is there any way to access the back of the headlights in the down position? Perhaps through the fender well? Maybe if the lever looking things for lifting the lights to service position weren't in the way?



If you could have it your way, would you have the lens just fill the gap around the lights, or go all the way to that crease around the lights so there wasn't really much break in the fender surface?

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[Anchorman]

Saxman, the headlight I have is in excellent condition. So - once you've determined that you're going to undertake this project (and I understand that there's no guarantee of success, all I'm looking for is assurance of a good faith effort), I'll pack it up and send it so that you can install it on your car in replacement for the bad one which will become the guinea pig.

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[flash]

there is a good amount of room behind the light - the area is actually quite large - however, there isn't great access to it from the engine bay - you could probably sneak in there to make adjustments if you created a tool, but not really enough to get your hand in there and be able to move it around - for installation though, you could easily remove the fender liner and have a lot more access from the rear



if i had my way, yes, it would go all the way forward, making it flush - this might not look right though if a clear lens is used, and it might need to stop at the edge of the opening - i'll do a mock up and take a look - in my perfect world, the lens would be accluded or fluted - there are a couple of lenses i wanted to check out to see if they fit, but none of them are going to be cheap

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[saxman]

personally I hate fluted lenses... they are an archaic way of focusing light. A projector will do a much better job of handling the light than fluting on the lens will do, and having them both in place is most certainly counter productive.





If there's a lot of room behind the light, then any geometery issues and fitting everything physically inside the headlight becomes a moot point. It's very easy to extend stuff out the back of the headlight and then seal it up.





Anchorman, I have every intention of working this all through. I'm quite busy, so no guarantees that progress will be quick though. I've already started speaking to some people I know in the rapid prototyping world regarding lens options.

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[Anchorman]

Saxman - you've said all I need to "hear". There is no rush, so your being busy on other (hopefully, better paying) activities is no problem whatsoever. As I said, all I'm looking for is a good faith effort. If you'll send me a private note with your mailing address, I'll get the headlight packed up and shipped to you.

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[saxman]

[quote name='Anchorman' post='41491' date='Sep 20 2007, 02:26 PM']Saxman - you've said all I need to "hear". There is no rush, so your being busy on other (hopefully, better paying) activities is no problem whatsoever. As I said, all I'm looking for is a good faith effort. If you'll send me a private note with your mailing address, I'll get the headlight packed up and shipped to you.[/quote]





Sadly, linear algebra homework and such aren't really better paying activities, but they must be done first. I really hate that class.



Anyway, I will certainly put an effort into making something work here... right now, the only hold up I see is the lens.







Anyone work for a company that does plastic injection molding?



PM sent regarding the headlight.







Flash, I'll take a look at the ease of integrating this in to the fender. The only difficult I could forsee in that manner is creating the lens to fit properly.



Making a plug for a mold that'll fit won't be difficult... If I end up going the route of doing a two piece mold and doing a plastic injection process for the lens, I should be able to make something work. That'll be a secondary concern though.







Something else that I will play with is how much the flutes in the stock lens actually effect the output of the projectors. I have seen a very small number of cases where it was liveable, which means it may be possible to at least come up with something temporary while a clear lens is sorted out for those desperate to get rid of the pop ups.

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[saxman]

Well, thanks to anchorman, I now have an extra 968 headlight sitting here... so let the fun begin!





First off, why is the 968 headlight a 944 part number? Silly porsche engineers.





Anyway, flash, you may be correct. The inner bucket isn't adjustable as I had originally though... although I'm sure it's probably still a separate item. Doesn't matter much though. Odd to see all of the adjustments for the headlight done to the entire headlight... somewhat archaic way of doing things, but oh well.





The lens is held in place by the same sealant as nearly every other headlight I've worked with, so no problems with separating those.





Flash mentioned fitment issues with the projectors when mock ups are done to scale. Well, I took a couple photos with the projectors sitting side by side with the headlight so that the could be to scale. Looks like room will be a little tight, but should be plenty workable.



Here is the headlight with the inifiniti FX45 projector... what I would most likely use.







Looks like it shouldn't be an issue.





Also, I took a photo with the hella 90mm low beam projectors... same projector commonly used by the race guys, and I believe anchorman mentioned it earlier. This would be the closest to a basis for a street legal set up, but far from the best performing/looking set up.

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[flash]

i think it's way too close to the lens for a plastic lens to work - probably melt that thing pretty fast - maybe with the glass lens though, if you can figure out the flutes and beam angle refraction, and figure out how to mount that thing in there



good luck - definitely a project

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