[PorscheDude]

"big blacks" are from the 928 S4

"big reds" are from the 993

I have some pics somewhere that shows blacks, reds and MO30 sitting next to each other. I will try and dig it up.

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[flash]

ah - thanks - all these names and numbers..................

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[banditsc]

Well actually to further clarify a little..



Big Blacks are from a 928 GTS, they are 36mm/44mm piston sizes with a trailing orientation. 322mm Disc

Big Reds are from a 993 TT, they are 36mm/44mm piston sizes with a leading orientation. 322mm Disc

928 S4 calipers are also a 36mm/44mm piston size but they take a 304mm Disc (can be modified to take the 322). These are also the same ones used on a M030.

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[flash]

ok - which 928 came with the red calipers and 2 piece hats?

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[jaap]

[quote name='Cloud9...68' post='65516' date='Jan 13 2009, 01:30 AM']I sprayed the screws with JB Catalyst penetrant, and will try unscrewing them later tonight. If they don't come right off, I'll try the heat gun. If that doesn't work, I'll be back at this thread asking for advice. Thanks for all the tips so far.[/quote]



What always worked for me is removing them using an impact screwdriver.



Jaap

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[banditsc]

[quote name='flash' post='65529' date='Jan 13 2009, 01:38 AM']ok - which 928 came with the red calipers and 2 piece hats?[/quote]

I don't recall a 928 with stock red calipers..

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[flash]

hmmm - this could easily be a thing were i saw them on the car and it was before i started paying attention, assuming that model was always like that when it was entirely possible it was done by the owner - i've seen it quite a bit though, so it must be a pretty "standard" upgrade for those guys

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[PorscheDude]

powder coat after purchase for the 928 calipers?

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='jaap' post='65530' date='Jan 13 2009, 03:47 AM']What always worked for me is removing them using an impact screwdriver.



Jaap[/quote]

Yes, that's high on my list of likely options. This is one tool I don't have, but should. I tried unscrewing the bolts a few hours after spraying them (I have a large screwdriver that fits perfectly into the head of the bolts), but no luck. These suckers are pretty tight. I think they will need some combination of heat and/or impact screwdriver. Thanks for all you help and advice.

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[flash]

try tightening first to crack them loose

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[Anchorman]

The main topic of this thread, as well as the diversionary one (brake terminology), are both interesting. I'm looking forward to the continuing clarification of what brakes are what size/characteristics from what car, and what's needed to use them on the 968. Maybe this is worthy of a separate thread.

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[banditsc]

I just removed the screws on all the rotors on my 928 this weekend. I used a large phillips screwdriver with vise grips attached to the handle. I used a hammer to bang the screwdriver into the screw, then while pushing in on the screwdriver I hit the down on the handle of the vice grips to break the screws free. It worked for me..

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[DiREW0LF]

Impact Driver @ Sears



Every shop should have one and it makes a GREAT gift!



<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[Big Dave]

[quote name='banditsc' post='65528' date='Jan 13 2009, 04:50 AM']Well actually to further clarify a little..



Big Blacks are from a 928 GTS, they are 36mm/44mm piston sizes with a trailing orientation. 322mm Disc

Big Reds are from a 993 TT, they are 36mm/44mm piston sizes with a leading orientation. 322mm Disc

928 S4 calipers are also a 36mm/44mm piston size but they take a 304mm Disc (can be modified to take the 322). These are also the same ones used on a M030.[/quote]



Quite correct....



Flash.

NONE of the 928 range came with Red coloured calipers. They were all black.

Come on m8. Get your facts correct.

After all that debacle with wheel terminolgy, you of all should be getting things right..... <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[PorscheDude]

Some info I dug up, I am still looking for the picture I had.

Big blacks are not S4 brakes. S4 are off the M030 cars or the 928s4. Big blacks come from the 928GTS. You'll need adaptors for Big blacks, which are exactly the same brakes as Big REDs exept they mount easier due to the fact that they are meant to be mounted in the trailing position unlike big reds which are meant for mounting in the leading position. If you get the one peice 911 rotors you do not need the extra rotor hats (still need caliper mounts).

I am not sure if you need adaptors to mount the S4 brakes to a non M030 car- anyone know?

Here is some info off of Tom Pultz www.944s2.com web site- check it out- great info...

PS- I will have some S4 brakes and rotors for sale soon (bought a 968 M030 parts car and will be going with big blacks instead of the S-4- car should be here this coming week). Updating my 86 951 to the 968M030 suspention.





M030 OPTION FRONT BRAKES: A 944 S2 equipped with the very rare M030 Sports Suspension option uses the same size front brakes as those used on the 1988 944 Turbo S or 1989 944 Turbo. These larger Brembo calipers first appeared on the 928 S4 so are routinely referred to as the "S4 brakes." The piston sizes are 36 and 44 mm and the corresponding brake pad width is a very substantial 132 mm. The front rotors used with these "S4" calipers have a diameter of 304 mm (11.97 in) and a thickness of 32 mm (1.26 in).



M030 cars use different steering knuckles and hubs. Different knuckles are required because the S4 caliper attaches using a radial mount as opposed to the axial mount for the standard caliper. Different hubs are used to accommodate the 4 mm increased thickness of the M030 rotor.



When it comes to brakes, bigger is generally better :-) Fortunately, 944 Turbo and 944 S2 owners need only search as far as the factory parts bin for something that's even larger than the M030 S4 brakes. Note: this brake upgrade requires the use of 17" wheels or special modular 16" wheels to clear the larger calipers. Non M030 cars also require caliper mounting adapters to convert from axial mount calipers to radial mount calipers. I purchased mine from Broadfoot Racing. 1986 944 Turbo cars require modifications or a specially engineered adapter kit because of their different offset requirements.



BIG RED CALIPERS: The famous Porsche "big red" Brembo calipers from the late model 911 C2 Turbo or 993 Twin Turbo work well on late model 944s or 968s. Since these calipers were originally made to mount in the leading position in front of the axle they must be rotated around for use in the trailing position on the 944 or 968 series cars. Mounting the calipers in this location introduces three minor problems: 1) the location of the bleeder fittings and cross-over tube must be swapped, 2) the brake pad retention spring is now hinged at the top instead of at the bottom of the pad area, and 3) the brake line inlet is now at the top piston location instead of at the bottom piston location (not necessarily true anymore... the design may have changed)



BIG BLACK CALIPERS: The minor "problems" with the big red calipers are not usually a concern. However, in order to maintain factory reliability and improve brake fluid cooling I wanted to use the 2-piece combination steel and rubber brakes lines from the M030 944 S2 (see picture above). These lines use a rigid steel tube between the caliper and strut mount and this really helps cool the brake fluid. In order to use these lines a caliper with the fluid inlet location in the stock position is required. Therefore, I chose the 928 GTS "big black" calipers. These calipers are physically the same size as the big reds and use the same size brake pads. However, since they are meant to mount in the trailing position they are a true bolt-on option. They also don't show the brake dust!



The piston sizes used in the big red or GTS 4-piston Brembo calipers are the same size as those used in the M030 option S4 calipers, namely 36 and 44 mm. The brake pad width is also the same 132 mm. However, the brake pad depth is increased substantially to match the larger rotor diameter.



ROTORS: Three factory front rotor options are available for big red or big black calipers:



928 GTS — 1-piece, "non-drilled," same offset as '87 and on 944 Turbo or 944 S2.



911 C2 3.6 Turbo — 1-piece, "drilled," same offset as '87 and on 944 Turbo or 944 S2.



993 Twin Turbo (TT) — 2-piece (separate rotor and mounting hat), "drilled," 5 mm less offset than above options. Not for use on cars originally equipped with S4 calipers (M030 option) unless custom alloy hats are used.

Another good link with good info which I am sure most have seen.

http://www.weissach.net/944S2_BrakeUpgrade.html

http://www.944s2.com/brakes/brakes.htm

http://www.944s2.com/brakes/brakes.htm#specs

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[xrad]

cloud9: GOOD for you! please get a digital camera so you can post pics....pics worth a thousand posts in this instance <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ohmy.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[Cloud9...68]

Success! Ran over to Harbor Freight over lunch to pick up an impact screwdriver (on sale for $4.99), and it worked like a charm. No amount of struggling with a large philips screwdriver, even with heat, and turning the screw the opposite direction, got them to budge, but a few whacks on the impact screwdriver, and voila! As DiREWOLF says, everyone should have one.



As far as pictures, my digital camera isn't working too well these days, so I'm not sure I'll be taking any. It's really straightforward, though - dummy over here didn't realize he had spacers, which covered up the two philips screws that hold the rotor to the hub. Once the spacers were off, the mystery was solved. The rotors practically fell off once I got the screws out. Maybe this one needs to be added to the Dumb Home Mechanic Experiences thread I started awhile back <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[PorscheDude]

Glad to hear you did it!



Flash here are some reference pics I have collected.

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