[happysails2you]

Hi Guys,



I read a lot of of the previous posts on this topic in the wee hours this morning, but would like your additional thoughts on this.



There is a noticeable growl/grinding noise from the front brakes, so something needs to be done at this point....question is what and how much $.



My mechanic is recommending that we replace brakes and rotors all around, about $1400 total, p & l. (You're all snickering because you'd do this yourselves and save a lot, I know...ok, so I used to work on cars but just don't have time anymore) He recommends original OEM parts on the car, which he usually sources through the local Porsche dealer. I asked about less dusty brake pads, but his feeling is that it's better to stick with the originals and just clean the wheels more often (not really a big deal for me). My 968 is a weekend fair weather car, used mostly for in-town driving and some highway, no track driving.



There's a lip or raised area on the outer edge of the rotors, so I'm wondering if I could just have the rotors turned (assuming they're not warped or out of tolerance), need to ask him about that.



We're not sure if they're the original rotors (52000 miles on the car). When I bought the car in May 2005, the PO had just put on new brake pads and rotors. There is a receipt from his mechanic's shop for front rotors (which my mechanic said is about the right price for the parts), but my friend (who has had a 968 for years) and my mechanic think that the rotors on the front wheels look like the originals and have too much of this outer edge rim/wear to have been replaced just 7,000 miles ago...a minor mystery.



So I'm just looking for suggestions about brakes/rotors -- again, not looking to put on big reds or extra spiffy rotors, but debating if I should just bite the bullet and replace pads and rotors now while I have the money, or do so later with a resurfacing or grinding; and do you have any suggested sources for these parts that might save some $$$.



Thoughts? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wub.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Ciao,

Kathy

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[sasilverbullet]

Kathy - some recommendations...



If you have the tools to jack up a wheel and take it off, then you have what it takes to replace the pads/rotors on a 968. It's VERY easy to do!



DON'T TURN THE ROTORS!!!! That's from a 50 yr old Porsche only mechanic that was trained in Stuttgart for 4 years at Porsche. He knows how to turn a rotor on a Porsche so as not to cause vibration, but he showed me the setup he uses and trust me, NO ONE else can do it correctly, just buy new ones.



Whoever does the work, have the brake fluid completely bled.



The rotors may not need to be replaced. Porsche rotors are awesome and if you don't have any vibration when you apply the brakes you need to check the width of the rotor to see how worn down it is. As long as the width of the rotor is not within a few mm's of the minimum, DON'T replace them. But I highly recommend that if you do it yourself, or if the shop does it, use GARNET sandpaper and sand off the coating on both sides of the rotors. Doing that will get the coating that the other brake pads put on off and allow your news pads to 'bed-in' their own coating on the rotors.



Oh, and make sure no matter who does that work that you properly bed-in the new pads/rotors!



I hope this helps!

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[JWahlsten]

Growling from the wheels could be a couple of things. First, it could just be dirt in between the pads and the rotors. In this case a good cleaning would fix the problem. Next, are you experiencing a long pedal for your brakes? What I mean is when you hit the pedal the first time are you putting in more travel than if you hit it twice. This could be a loose front wheel bearing. The last possibility is glazed pads.



I am in Dover, DE and could help you change them if you would rather try it yourself. I have all of the necessary tools and a pressure bleeder for the brakes.



If you'd rather go with your mechanic, I'd agree that the Porsche rotors are the way to go, but I'd go with Hawk Ceramic pads or Metal Masters. Both have great bite and less dusting.



I also agree with our San Antonio friend that bedding in your brakes correctly is a requirement.



HTH

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[RPM]

Hard to imagine you need brakes after 7k unless the job was really done badly.



I just did full pads, rotors, sensors, and brake lines front and back. I did nthe backs and then ran out of time. Had my shop do the fronts and replace all of the lines.



Some thoughts:



1. Pads - Went with PBR Deluxe pads to get lower dust with OEM performance. So far I love them. No squeak and very little dust compared to OEM.



2. Rotors - Most likely you will need new ones all around. There are some good sources that are much cheaper than the dealer prices - Some are sponsors on this forum. Foreign Intrigue has some great prices listed in Excellence - $100 to 110 for drilled Zimmermanns!

Foreign Intrigue

If you must go dealer than it is always good to deal with Sunset Porsche in Oregon. Thier prices for OEM parts are unbeatlable, though they do ship kinda slow.



3. Sensors and shims - You will need these also and they are not cheap or easy to find. You mechanic will have them and I suspect that it will just be easier to get them that way.



4. Brake lines - Good time to replace. Rubber parts on our cars are starting to go. Do it now while the mechanic is already there. You might also have him inspect the hydraulic line. It is famous for suddenly bursting.



My suggestion: Ask your mechanic if you can supply the rotors and pads. If he says no you might consider looking for another mechanic.



My total cost after I bought the rotors and pads seperately and did the backs at home was just about $900. My entire system is now completely overhauled and it works much better than before.



And no dust!!!!

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[Dave]

I like the Porsche rotors. They just last longer than the aftermarket ones and the hats won't rust (nicely painted). Stock pads are just fine for a street car too. Porsche specified them, can't be too wrong.



I agree with above notes on turning the rotors. I've gone through about 10+ sets of rotors and never turned one once. Not a good use of your time.



I do agree that MetalMasters are a worthy pad, but for a street cab... you really can't go wrong with the items from Dr. Porsche (except for the additional co$t).



Porsche's and BMW's have a tendency to spew a bit more dust onto the wheels than most. Just have to clean the wheels a bit more often.

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[kodomokid]

On alll of my cars, I have gone with either PBR Ultimates or PBR Metal Masters. Both are low dust and do a fine job at stopping. The Ultimates are a ceramic/kevlar compound. The grab really well. I have used Zimmerman's quite a bit but I do agree with others that the hats rust out easily. I want to find some paint to use on the hats of the new rotors I ordered for my 968.

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[bob blackwell]

[quote name='kodomokid' post='30836' date='Feb 11 2007, 02:11 AM']On alll of my cars, I have gone with either PBR Ultimates or PBR Metal Masters. Both are low dust and do a fine job at stopping. The Ultimates are a ceramic/kevlar compound. The grab really well. I have used Zimmerman's quite a bit but I do agree with others that the hats rust out easily. I want to find some paint to use on the hats of the new rotors I ordered for my 968.[/quote]



I have been very happy with the Zimmermann Rotors I used and the VHT Exhaust Header paint I sprayed on the "Hats". The paint advertises that it is heat resistant up to 2,000 degrees fahrenheit and it hs held up very well. I also use the PBR Metalmaster pads and have no complaints with them. Good luck, Bob Blackwell.

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[Guest]

[quote name='happysails2you' post='30812' date='Feb 10 2007, 07:29 AM']There is a noticeable growl/grinding noise from the front brakes, so something needs to be done at this point....question is what and how much $.





There's a lip or raised area on the outer edge of the rotors, so I'm wondering if I could just have the rotors turned (assuming they're not warped or out of tolerance), need to ask him about that.



We're not sure if they're the original rotors (52000 miles on the car). When I bought the car in May 2005, the PO had just put on new brake pads and rotors. There is a receipt from his mechanic's shop for front rotors (which my mechanic said is about the right price for the parts), but my friend (who has had a 968 for years) and my mechanic think that the rotors on the front wheels look like the originals and have too much of this outer edge rim/wear to have been replaced just 7,000 miles ago...a minor mystery.[/quote]



You need to measure your rotor thickness. Min. wear limit is 26mm. By your description of the raised lip, it seems that you could be close, but it's hard to tell without seeing/measuring it.



These brakes have been known to make a growling noise. Mine did it at some point, but the brakes were fine. Mostly just an annoyance.

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[flash]

brake choices are like socks - everybody has tried a bunch of different ones, and they all have their favorites for their own reasons



as for turning rotors, it can be done, if there is enough material left, but porsche does not recommend it - there are very real liability reasons for this - with less material, there is less cooling, therefore a higher chance of fading and other failures occurring - this would have to be in extreme situations, but it is a very real possiblity



i am not a fan of turning rotors, though i have done it, even on cross-drilled ones - this is because i drive my cars hard, and expect the brakes to be perfect - on a commuter car, i would not be concerned, as long as it was still in spec - ona car i drive hard, do towing with, or take on the track, there is absolutely no chance i am going to run a thin rotor



both bmw and porsche spec their rotors with very little extra material - more often than not, there just isn't enough left after turning to meet spec



i never put pads on used rotors that show any kind of wear - a pad slap is not a good idea - uneven surfaces make for uneven deposits, and therefore uneven and often unpredictable braking results - either turn them or replace them if they have any grooves or uneven surfaces - change them in pairs (front and rear, not left and right)



zimmermans are a good rotor, but are a bit soft - hard pads can really do a number on them - fortunately they are inexpensive - i have these and like them, and have had no issues with them, but i realize the reality is that i will need to replace them each time i do my brakes



the brembo rotors are harder, but i have not found crossdriled ones yet for any reasonable amount



the choices of rotors and pads is really more up to what you want out of them



each pad has its own characteristics, and ups and downs



metal masters are a good inexpensive pad, as are the ceramic ones from the same mfg - i've run a lot of their stuff with great success over the years - they make less dust, and give you longer life and better heat dissipation - they can tear up rotors faster, and they can make for cold stop issues as trade off though - i am very disappointed that i am not having any luck with the deluxe pads by them on the bimmer - they are continuing to leave uneven deposits which are what cause the shaking in the wheel frequently misdiagnosed as warped rotors - this also often shows up as "growling" - i will now have to replace my rotors on that car, and start over



on the 968 i am running the porterfield 4S carbon/kevlar pad - i have been incredibly impressed with this pad - no cold stop issues - absolutely no fading, even on the track - about 25k on them now with lots to go - more dust than metal masters, but a lot less than stock - quite a bit more expensive than the metal master though



i concur with the need for a complete system bleed - this inclues the clutch, because the systems share the same reservoir - this should be done every 2 years - carefully inspect the hydraulic hoses - if they are original, they are now WAY past their life expectancy, which has far more to do with age than it does with mileage - failures occur on the inside, and are not generally visible from the outside - replacement is easy and inexpensive - i recommend teflon lined braided stainless steel lines - these are available from paragon for very little - the high pressure clutch hose is also now available through rs barn



i hope this has been more helpful than confusing

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[sguy]

I'll second flash on some of his recommendations. I'm running a set of Porterfield 4S pads on Zimmerman rotors, and they are a fantastic combination track/street pad. At just over $100 a set, they are also affordable. They work fine on the street and have excellent fade and wear on the track. I run a track that is hard on brakes and I have to work to get them to fade. I've also had good luck with Metal Master Ultimates on other cars. I've run them on my Porsche and they work good on the street, but I have not tried them on the track. I've had good luck on the track with a lighter car (Miata) and these the Unlimates, but they might not be up to the job for a heaver/more powerful car and agressive driving. They are inexpensive, I think they were about $40 a set. from Paragon.



Cheers,

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[earossi]

Kathy,



Well, you certainly got a lot of responses to your questions about brakes. There isn't much that I can add, but I'll try.



In your original posting you mentioned that you use the car only on weekends and that the car will not be tracked. These two comments prompt some immediate responses that you should consider:



First, since you are a weekend driver and don't track the car, you are wasting you money to purchase drilled rotors. Also, some drilled rotors can develop cracking around the drilling, so don't go this route.



Second, if you are a weekend driver, whatever work you have done to the car will probably be the last time you do anything regarding brakes to the car (except for fluid bleeding, which should still be done since brake fluid absorbs moisure whether you drive the car or not).



Third, the labor to remove and replace the rotors is the same whether you take your old rotors off to turn them or whether you replace them with new ones. Also, there is a nominal charge to turn the old rotors (usually less than $20 per rotor), but why skimp on that part for a car on which this could be your only brake replacement ever (given your limited useage).



Next, brake pads, as pointed out by Flash, are a personal thing. There are aftermarket products that are as good as OEM, and perhaps better; but, they may perform differently than what you have; so, if you are happy with the way the current pads work, I suggest going back with OEM's. If you are concerned about the brake dust, all you need to do is wax your wheels a couple of times per year. Once waxed, the dust will wash off with a hose when you wash the car.



I concur with the advice to replace your brake hoses. The OEM's are probably not in the best of shape given their age, and hoses are not very expensive. Since you need to bleed the brakes anyway, why not put on new hoses now?



Lastly, if you have put only 7,000 miles on what was represented as "new brakes" and there are ridges on the rotors, I suspect that "new" meant just new pads! I have never seen rotors wear that fast!



One more thing. Disc brakes are self adjusting, so pedal travel is NOT an indicator or wear. As the pads wear, the caliper pistons will move to compensate for the thinning pads, and remain in that new location. Fluid will take up the slack. You should always have a high pedal. The only time the pedal should drop is if you have a system that is full of air or there is a leak in the system. What IS an indicator of pad wear is that the level of brake fluid in your fluid reservoir will drop as the pads wear.



Having done brakes a few times, my guess is that an experienced mechanic should be able to replace pads, rotors, and bleed the system is less than 4 hours.



Good luck.

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[flash]

everybody knows i'm mod nuts, but some of them are just "givens" to me, and this is not intended to start an argument



while i completely agree that there is nothing wrong with OEM brake parts, and it is absolutely fine to keep it that way, i fail to understand why anybody would want to stay there (unless they were going to concours the car), given that the cost of aftermarket stuff is priced lower, AND the performance is better - better performance for less money - seems like a no brainer to me



even if you never get anywhere near the fade point that the cross-drilling would help with, in wet conditions, the holes will help cut the water away - that just means a safer car



as for the "cross drilling cracking thing", while this has been known to happen with some rotors on some cars, so far, i have not heard of it being an issue with the zimmermans on a street driven 968 (grooving from hard pads notwithstanding) - i cannot speak to other brands - in fact, the M030 rotors came from the factory cross-drilled, and given the propensity for the conservative on the part of porsche, i cannot think it would be much of an issue on this car



many people are reluctant to change anything from OEM - that's ok - but, there is better stuff out there now, for a lot of items on this car, and some things just make sense, or at least seem to be no harm - for example, would you put the original tires back on the car, knowing what is available now?



so far, i have not found a down side to using the zimmermans, and would consider this a given - lol - besides, they look really cool

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[RPM]

What IS an indicator of pad wear is that the level of brake fluid in your fluid reservoir will drop as the pads wear.

Another indicator of pad wear is the bright red "Brake Pad" warning light that comes on in the center of the dashboard once the sensors get tripped <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



I really wrestled with the OEM pad issue as usually I am an OEM-kinda guy. But I was sick of the dust and the cost of OEM pads (either Jurid or Pagid) was very high compared to other options. Additionally, OEM parts for this car often reflect 15-25 year old technology. Brake pads have gotten better since this brake system was first installed on the 951 in 1986!



After TONS of research on the issue I went with PBR Deluxe pads ($65 for both axles). I am thrilled with the result. Stops great - no dust.

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[Anchorman]

Here's another vote for the PBR pads - and for the Zimmerman cross-drilled rotors.

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[S_Cal968]

Before you make a decision on your rotors, have them measured using a rotor caliper. There's a minimum thickness dimension listed on the hat section. Unless the car was used on a track, I doubt your rotors are worn out.

The ridge you discribed is common when only the pads are replaced and the rotors are not turned. The downside to not turning the rotors is it takes longer to bed-in [break-in] the pads.

I checked the factory shop manual and sure enough there's no mention of turning the rotors. I've serviced brakes on many different cars and this is the first I've seen the exclusion of this common practise.

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[RPM]

I just don't see the advantage of turning rotors on a performance car. If the current rotors have over 50k miles, and the difference between the costs of turning old rotors to get another 10-20k out of them and replacing with all new is only around $150, I would go with new every time. This will give the car good brakes for probably 30-50k. If you just turn the rotors you may be back in there again in a few years time.



Do the whole job right - rotors, pads, sensors, shims, flush and refill fluid, and new brake lines (and consider the main hydraulic line while you are at it). Then you don't have to think about brakes for years.

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[flash]

yeah, that's pretty much my take on it too - i think you hit the nail on the head



kathy - this is not directed toward you or anybody in particular, but i have to get this off my chest, and yes, i realize that i am the extreme in this case - i apologize in advance for huffing and puffing



i do understand that most people work on a budget - so do i - whether used as a daily driver or not though, i think you have to take a different perspective when dealing with a performance car - you have to expect to do things in a manner and to an extent that you wouldn't have to do with your toyota camry



i agree with the philosophy of "do it right the first time" - i'll go one further - if you can't afford to do that, i think you should get a different car that you can afford, or park this one until you can - these are great cars, if maintained properly, but that costs real money - when they were new they might have been fairly simple to keep up, but they are now quite old, and like any old car, need a lot to keep them up - it just makes me sick to see the dilapidated condition some of them are allowed to get into



ok - rant over - i'm going out to wax and polish my engine bay now



come to think of it, i think i need to arrange another group "detail day" for early this spring

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[kodomokid]

I would also like to add that if you shop around, you may surprise yourself just how little you really have to spend. If you find a online broker for Worldpac, you get OEM parts at major discounts. They have distribution warehouses all over the US. It is much better than going to the dealer. In fact the dealer may be ordering the parts from one of these warehouses as well. Also with most of these brokers, you get free shipping if you spend over $50 which is worth it if you are buying rotors which tend to be pretty heavy. The one I use is www.vwmart.com or www.autopartsplace.com(same company). I usually get my order within 2 days of ordering. Not bad for free ground shipping. The thing is, I believe in using good parts on my cars, especially the 968. I want the most from my cars and giving them good parts will help me get that.

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[flash]

very good tip!

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[S_Cal968]

The advantage to turning is it trues up the suface and provides an even braking surface for full engagement. If there is any surface imperfections a light-cut will clean up the rotor. Another reason is to break the glazed [read super smooth] surface - with a machine finsh the pads will bed in properly and quicker for full stopping power. You may notice new rotors come with a cross-hatch pattern - this is to help break-in the pad. And, yes you'll get a lot more than 10-20K, [that's unrealistically low for a street car].



Obviously rotor longevity depends on how used - if this car has always seen light duty then there's probably a lot of life left in the original rotors; 50K is not much for this car...



On a side note; I can afford to go with all new parts everytime too, but feel it's a waste of money to toss parts that are still within spec. Maintenance isn't that expensive if you get the full-service life out of your parts... Keep in mind Porsche has a healthy profit margin on their parts so they may not avocate reconditioning.

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