[RPM]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->... I recall an explanation being in print as to how the testing results came about.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

An important clarification: CR does extensive testing of new cars. Those results are valid and sometimes more valuable that the enthusiast magazines.

However, their much-quoted annual ratings are compiled based exclusively on subscriber feedback, not on actual controlled long-term tests or actual repair data from carmakers.

Here is a link to the most recent JD Powers numbers from The Truth About Cars (TTAC). If you are not familiar with this automotive blog, it is one of the best.

J.D. Power: Buick and Jaguar Top Lexus for Dependability. And?

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[rhudeboye]

<!--quoteo(post=69336:date=Mar 25 2009, 10:13 AM:name=RPM)-->QUOTE (RPM @ Mar 25 2009, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->An important clarification: CR does extensive testing of new cars. Those results are valid and sometimes more valuable that the enthusiast magazines.

However, their much-quoted annual ratings are compiled based exclusively on subscriber feedback, not on actual controlled long-term tests or actual repair data from carmakers.

Here is a link to the most recent JD Powers numbers from The Truth About Cars (TTAC). If you are not familiar with this automotive blog, it is one of the best.

J.D. Power: Buick and Jaguar Top Lexus for Dependability. And?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

A quote from the blog page linked above that express my thoughts exactly.

<i><b>"Boston :
March 19th, 2009 at 7:44 am

Jaguar - wtf? There is a big wave of complaints on the internet about the XF.

I also find it hard to believe that Chrysler is better than average."</b></i>


Speaking with real owners and even better, mechanics, Gives me a pretty clear picture as to what not to buy. i.e. I came across a steal of a deal on a 95 750 BMW. Not sure if the mags were in agreement with this or not, but my bosses experience (nightmare from month one) and my mechanics opinion steered me away form that deal.

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[DiREW0LF]

Hopefully no one is disappointed but last week I turned my Denali lease in for a 2009 Dodge Ram 1500. I hated the Denali, nothing but problems with the truck and my dealer made the experience horrible. Let me first say I would have NEVER purchased a Dodge, the only reason for buying domestic was because I wanted a pickup. I looked at the new Ford F150 but was disappointed by the horrible quality of the sheet metal and interior. Add to that the ugly headlights and tail lights and I was seriously disappointed being we have always owned Ford pickups.

I didn't want to go back with GM after the experience with the Denali and all the local dealers (5 in total). I decided to look at the new 2009 Ram 1500, let me tell you, its a night and day difference in quality when compared to 08 and earlier models. Add to that all the great options, unlimited warranty (Maxcare Addon is Bumper to Bumper) and the ride with the coil springs and I was hooked. I ordered it 5 weeks ago and I picked it up this past Thursday. So far everthing has been great (as much as I can tell in 300 miles).

I will post some pictures this weekend (hopefully).

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[rhudeboye]

<!--quoteo(post=69338:date=Mar 25 2009, 10:39 AM:name=DiREW0LF)-->QUOTE (DiREW0LF @ Mar 25 2009, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Hopefully no one is disappointed but last week I turned my Denali lease in for a 2009 Dodge Ram 1500. I hated the Denali, nothing but problems with the truck and my dealer made the experience horrible. Let me first say I would have NEVER purchased a Dodge, the only reason for buying domestic was because I wanted a pickup. I looked at the new Ford F150 but was disappointed by the horrible quality of the sheet metal and interior. Add to that the ugly headlights and tail lights and I was seriously disappointed being we have always owned Ford pickups.

I didn't want to go back with GM after the experience with the Denali and all the local dealers (5 in total). I decided to look at the new 2009 Ram 1500, let me tell you, its a night and day difference in quality when compared to 08 and earlier models. Add to that all the great options, unlimited warranty (Maxcare Addon is Bumper to Bumper) and the ride with the coil springs and I was hooked. I ordered it 5 weeks ago and I picked it up this past Thursday. So far everthing has been great (as much as I can tell in 300 miles).

I will post some pictures this weekend (hopefully).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Nice to hear a good experience. Also noted that the poll shows quite a few Yeses. I wonder how many of those yeses applies to trucks only.

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[Ryan]

This has been a fun little rant. I wish the USA would build a better car and I think some are, but still..... All my cars have been German except trucks. I had a 78 GMC C20 and now have a Tundra. My first truck was a 66 VW Micro-bus....wow the memories with that one.

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[flash]

no question, i would have gone dodge and the big V10 if only they made a full sized short wheelbase SUV

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[skiemt]

<b>Without American, where is one to get a good tow vehicle? </b>

I have a Ford Explorer with a towing package and 201K miles on it. It has been a good vehicle and will still tow anything I put behind it. When I purchased it, Porsche didn't even make an SUV/tow vehicle (or import one) at the time. It has served me well and it still has the original trannie and engine. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] However, when my Exploder dies, I will be faced with the big issue of what to buy for a winter/bad weather/tow vehicle. Yes, it would be nice to pull my 968 to the track with a Cheyenne but then I would be faced with the problem of which to drive for pleasure on the weekends. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img] At the last DE Event two weeks ago I did find myself checking out the variety of tow vehicles driven by other PCA members. There were a wide variety of American and Foriegn but for the most part were American (~65-70%). I must admit, I did love the way my buddy's 944T looked with a Cheyenne as a tow vehicle.

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[DaveN]

<!--quoteo(post=69351:date=Mar 25 2009, 01:44 PM:name=Ryan)-->QUOTE (Ryan @ Mar 25 2009, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->This has been a fun little rant. I wish the USA would build a better car and I think some are, but still..... All my cars have been German except trucks. I had a 78 GMC C20 and now have a Tundra. My first truck was a 66 VW Micro-bus....wow the memories with that one.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


My new F350 work truck spent a lot of time in the shop the first few months with an intermittent rear wiring harness (factory assy damage) and a blown trans seal (factory overfilled trans by 1.5 litres, more is better - right?). But they still emblazoned my winshield with the "Proudly made in Kentucky" sticker. Hmmm too much Jack maybe?

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[Winston968]

Quite an interesting thread.

To directly answer the poll question, I said Not likely, for 2 reasons. Firstly, I use my 968 as a daily driver. And Secondly, there isn't a suitable American made car that is available here in Australia.
We get an odd mix of US made cars here, like the Chrysler brands, and the BMW and Mercedes SUVs. We also get the BMW Z4.
Cadillac were going to relaunch here this year, but that has been delayed indefinitely because of the financial downturn.
So there really isn't a car that made in the US that is suitable for me.

But as to the wider question of supporting an American car company, it would depend on the individual car. But with GM and Ford (currently) owning a lot of other brands, owning say a Volvo or Saab would indirectly support them. And I would consider a Volvo or Saab.

As to the even wider question of supporting domestic vs foreign cars, again, I think it should depend on the individual car. I don't know what level of cultural cringe exists elsewhere, but here, my perception is that local products are seen as inferior. Which raises an interesting point about cars exported from Australia. Do folks in the US perceive the Pontiac G8 (built in Australia) as inferior to domestic competitors?

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[Cloud9...68]

This has beenan interesting discussion. Obviously, there's no perfect source of information when it comes to buying a car. It's best to survey the various different sources - friends, mechanics, enthusiast magazines, and I stand by the value of a large "clearing house" of survey data like Consumer Reports. I'm rooting for Detroit to not only survive, but to thrive by making the best cars on the planet. But putting CR's generally poor ratings of American cars aside for the mement, when was the last time an American car won a comparison test in Car & Driver, Road & Track, Motor Trend, etc.? Wait, the Ford Fusion Hybrid did beat out the competition in a recent C & D test, so it does happen occasionally, but it's exceedingly rare. Yes, Detroit makes very good trucks and large SUVs, which is great when gas is a buck a gallon, but when it comes to making vehicles people are going to demand going forward, the Big 3 is in a life-and-death game of catch-up.

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[Lim Yong]

Hi all,
not likely to buy american brand. Havn't any interest with available selections from GM, Ford, Chrysler....

My preference is for a car that will last for more than 6 years. That tend to be European brands in my opinion.
Sat in an Audi and was impress by how quiet it is and I used to own an Audi 80 which was great, very reliable

Japanese brands get my vote for less maintenance, not sure about the high end Japanese brands like Infiniti
whether they last long. The lower price brands like Honda , Mazda paint don't last.


the HI car show is this weekend, will take a look. Lim

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[jeff968]

<!--quoteo(post=69325:date=Mar 25 2009, 10:21 AM:name=RPM)-->QUOTE (RPM @ Mar 25 2009, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->As to Consumer Reports:

All of their data is self-reported by CR subscribers, and that the demographic of CR subscribers is not a fair representation of the general public - in either numbers or socio/economic status.

CR is great for reviews and tests of consumer products. When I want to buy a new TV or a blender, that is where I go.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


<b>EXACTLY!!!!</b> I'll trust those CR subscribers for opinions on my blender but never my car!!!

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[Cloud9...68]

<!--quoteo(post=69395:date=Mar 26 2009, 08:10 AM:name=jeff968)-->QUOTE (jeff968 @ Mar 26 2009, 08:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><b>EXACTLY!!!!</b> I'll trust those CR subscribers for opinions on my blender but never my car!!!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a free country - and we're free to agree to disagree on this. Peronsally, when deciding on a sports car for myself, or for my dream of a dedicated track car, it would never cross my mind to consult Consumer Reports. But for our family cars, CR played very heavily into our decisions. Even when we were shopping for a car for my wife, the fact that the BMW 328i we settled on rated a half red circle by CR was a major deciding factor. If it had been a half or a full black, we would have chosen something else, it's as simple as that. The fact that the BMW 3 Series has long dominated Car & Driver's comparison tests was of course also a huge factor, along with the fact the we/she plain love the car.

As to the representative demographics agrument, all I can say is, Huh? Why would the demographics of the owners of the cars filling out the CR surveys differ significantly from the potential purchasers of the car in question? I must be missing something.

And yes, CR does rate new cars per a set of specific criteria, while relying on surveys for their reliability ratings. But their aggregate "report card" grade for the different car companies is based on a weighted average of both, so it seems like they're covering both types of information pretty well. As I said, there's no one perfect source of information, but the data CR provides is a very valuable component of the decision-making process, and the fact that American cars (to get back on topic again) rate so low with them, while simultaneously getting such a resounding thumbs down by the buying public, is pretty good evdence that they're doing a pretty decent job overall.

Sheesh, I never thought I'd spend so much time defending a magazine I have absolutely no vested interest in, so I'm going to stop now. I really do need to get a life...

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[jeff968]

<!--quoteo(post=69408:date=Mar 26 2009, 01:01 PM:name=Cloud9...68)-->QUOTE (Cloud9...68 @ Mar 26 2009, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->As to the representative demographics agrument, all I can say is, Huh? Why would the demographics of the owners of the cars filling out the CR surveys differ significantly from the potential purchasers of the car in question? I must be missing something.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Most CR subscribers and writers/testers are not car enthusiats. They subscribe to CR for help on puchasing that next blender, TV, and maybe a car as well. ALL of your Car&Driver, Motor Trend, Road and Track, Top Gear subscribers/writers are car enthusiasts, you'll never find a mention of a blender. As you said, it is a free country and I know who's opinion I would find the most value in.

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[RPM]

My point on the demographic thing was that the average CR reader/responder (suburban/middle class/professional) is more likely to be pre-disposed to the idea that Honda/Toyota represent the pinnacle of automotive achievement based on everything they have heard and experienced over the past 15-20 years, hence their internal bias.

A few examples of what I am talking about...

CR's rankings for the Toyota Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe would lead you to believe that the Toyota is a better vehicle, despite the fact that they are built on the same assembly line! (CR notes this fact in their reviews, but differences appear in the reliability and repair sections - that are based primarily on feedback.)

The same holds true for the Ford Escape and Mazda Tribute - CR readers rank the Tribute higher, and once again they are the same vehicle with slightly different plastic.

Another, slightly more nebulous example: Toyota quality seems to have diminished over the past few years (according to JD Power and many of the enthusiast oriented reviews of recent products) - but this is not represented in CR's rankings.

Not sure why I keep at this thread... I don't really care this much, except that I am tired of lazy, grandstanding politicians throwing irresponsible mud at the US auto industry when the industry (particularly Ford) is showing signs of real change. Yes, their sales are off 40% - but so are the import brands! Their biggest problems are based on health care and pay decisions that were made decades ago.

Think about it, did Congress put the AIGs and Merrrill-Lynches of the finance world through the humiliating 'congressional hearing so we can bitch at you' process before coughing up money? No, for Wall Street it was, "here's $300 billion, let us know how you plan to spend it." With Detroit is was, "what is wrong with you idiots that can't build cars? Prove to us that you are going to restructure your entire way of doing business and grovel before us (without your fancy-pants private jets) before we even consider giving you $20 billion."

That just pissed me off. period. White collar employees - gotta save those jobs... working stiffs on an assembly line - make 'em beg...

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[rhudeboye]

<!--quoteo(post=69413:date=Mar 26 2009, 11:52 AM:name=RPM)-->QUOTE (RPM @ Mar 26 2009, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Not sure why I keep at this thread... I don't really care this much, except that I am tired of lazy, grandstanding politicians throwing irresponsible mud at the US auto industry when the industry (particularly Ford) is showing signs of real change. Yes, their sales are off 40% - but so are the import brands! Their biggest problems are based on health care and pay decisions that were made decades ago.

Think about it, did Congress put the AIGs and Merrrill-Lynches of the finance world through the humiliating 'congressional hearing so we can bitch at you' process before coughing up money? No, for Wall Street it was, "here's $300 billion, let us know how you plan to spend it." With Detroit is was, "what is wrong with you idiots that can't build cars? Prove to us that you are going to restructure your entire way of doing business and grovel before us (without your fancy-pants private jets) before we even consider giving you $20 billion."

That just pissed me off. period. White collar employees - gotta save those jobs... working stiffs on an assembly line - make 'em beg...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Strong point. I'm kinda glad you keep at this thread [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] .

I Think the guys up on the hill have learned something from the AIG Bail/hand out and is trying to prove themselves more responsible from here on out. I think this little poll shows how a lot of people feel. They're not interested in giving money to what they consider a lost cause. Do to my personal feelings about and the things I have read, I'm in that camp as well. I'm not aware of any major changes made by them.

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[dep and dep]

When I lived in Japan I noticed that almost everyone drove Japanese cars, and when I visited Korea, I saw that Hyundai made just about every vehicle in sight. In Japan the government requires vehicle registration fees of $1K or so every two years until the car becomes 10 years old or so, at which point it is $1K every year with stringent inspection program and required repairs. As a result, there are few cars on the road there as old as our 968s. Imported cars are much more expensive than domestic cars in Japan. I saw some Volvos, BMWs, Benzes, and the yakuza drove big American cars, but no Porsches. The Japanese domestic car market had a lot more variety than what we see as imports in the U.S., and per capita ownership is high despite abysmal driving conditions by our standards. I don't remember anyone talking about buying a Japanese car being any kind of patriotic duty. It was just normal, since they worked well, there were many choices, and they were cheaper than imports.

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[rhudeboye]

<!--quoteo(post=69449:date=Mar 26 2009, 10:02 PM:name=dep)-->QUOTE (dep @ Mar 26 2009, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->When I lived in Japan I noticed that almost everyone drove Japanese cars,
I don't remember anyone talking about buying a Japanese car being any kind of patriotic duty. It was just normal, since they worked well, there were many choices, and they were cheaper than imports.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If everyone owns what their country produces then there's no issue to discuss. Back in the 60s when the vast majority in the US were all driving domestics it was pretty much a mute point here also. The smaller Japanese cars just weren't as desirable and had a reputation for poor build quality and weak engines. Now however the tables have turned. And as foreign cars become #1 sellers in the US you better believe many see it as a lack of pride to buy outside the US. Go to any Mustang, corvette forum and see how topics like this read.

Quote from Clint Eastwood. "Would it kill him to buy American"

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[scaldwell]

Hi

What do people mean when the say "Made in America". Many so-called imports are actually manufactured in N. America. Honda/Acura, Toyota, Subaru, Nissan, Mazda, and BMW among others all make cars in N. America, and many are designing and engineering them in N. America as well, The Toyota Venza is an example. Are these cars "Made in America"? At the same time Big Three cars such as several Saturns are actually designed and engineered in Europe. The Pontiac G8 and the Chev Camaro are designed and engineered in Australia. Is this "Made in America"? How do we classify the small GM cars that are actually built in Korea or Japan. What about NAFTA which has cars being built in the US, Canada and Mexico? Are NAFTA cars "Made in America"? Take the prototypical American car the new Camaro. It is largely designed and engineered in Australia, the manual transmission is from Japan, the automatic transmission is from France and it is all put together in Canada. Globilization anyone?

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[skiemt]

Earlier I stated that without America manufacturers where would one get a good tow vehicle? Yes, we are living in a globalization society where your car is designed, manufactured, and assembled in different countries but that is decisions that car manufacturers made for either profit or logistics. I even remember touring my cousin's electroplating business in Alabama years ago and he was plating car parts for Volvo!. I am a big supporter of America but as a consumer, if foreign products are better, then buy them. That is what is so cool about living in the land of the free, Freedom of Choice!. As a IT engineer I notice this in my industry regularly. For instance, even the American company Dell has it computers assembled in foreign countries. And has anyone called Tech Support and been able to understand them? Sorry, I digressed and I need to get back at the subject at hand. Years ago, if you wanted a good truck, you bought American but that has changed. The same has happened to almost every industry out there. Well, except for German engineering when it comes to cars (thank God!).

Currently in my garage is my Porsche and my wife's Nissan, with my Ford (winter/ bad weather/tow vehicle) in the driveway. During my life as a car owner I have had 2 Volkswagens, 1 British Leyland, 1 Volvo, 3 Mercedes, 1 Isuzu, 1 Toyota, and 1 Ford. I used to state that if you found a US made car in my driveway, someone was visiting. I have friends that have always frowned upon me buying non-American but if Detroit had built a better car then maybe I wouldn't have gone foreign. And you know, once you go German you never go back! I love my Porsche. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]

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