[968Syncro]

I think the American car offerings will continue to be less desirable for some time, until the American auto culture changes.

The American car companies are sales driven, not demand driven.
- Sales driven: Detroit tries to define what they can push on the customer. E.g.: Let's sort through the parts bin and see what we can assemble for cheap to maximize sales.
- Demand driven: Japanese companies just plain offer what they think the customer desires. (Germans and Korean's are doing much better in this category).

Around here people pay a premium for any and every Lexus, simply because it is better, the real thing, and gives people what they want. People do not want to pay less for a pretense that comes from Detroit, they'd rather pay more for the real thing. Maybe that is why we are all here, buying older Porsches rather than older Corvettes.

Roland

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[ds968]

Of all the American cars I had, and there were not too many, ( a 69 Chevy SS, a 71 440 'Cuda, a 73 Olds98 and a 78 Seville ) if I had to drive one again today it would probably be the Seville - as underpowered as it may have been I think the build quality of that car as best as I can recall was comparable to any of the Mercedes' I have owned since 1980 to current day ( had a 450 SL, a 300 SD, an E 320 and a C240 ). But I can't think of a single American car since 1980 that I would want to drive on a daily basis. Sure for fun, a Viper or a Z06 Vette, even the brand new uber-fast Solstice would be ok and I think they all look great, though I have no idea what reliability issues one may face with those. May be the comparisons of new American cars to new Japanese or German or British competition, where ours fare very well are accurate but the ultimate test is in longevity - I am very doubtful that a Ford Fusion, or any given Buick which may have scored higher than their Toyota or Nissan counterparts will hold together more than three or four years from now whereas I'm willing to bet those others will serve you trouble-free for a long, long time after the U.S-built car takes up space in a junkyard.


+1 on Chris' post remarks

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[rhudeboye]

<!--sizeo:3--><!--/sizeo--><b>Fords line up</b>
Flex
Focus
Fusion
mustang
Taurus
Edge
Escape
Expedition
Explorer
Ranger
F series
E series

<b>
Chevy's line up</b>
Aveo
Cobalt
corvette
HHR
Impala
Malibu
Avalanche
colorado
silverado
equinox
suburban
tahoe
trailblazzer
traverse
Express van
<!--sizec--><!--/sizec-->

Which of the following in your opinion is best in its class? Performance, quality and value.

<!--quoteo(post=69272:date=Mar 24 2009, 11:22 AM:name=RPM)-->QUOTE (RPM @ Mar 24 2009, 11:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->While quite a popular opinion among politicians and pundits these days, none of these contentions survives scrutiny once you stop thinking like it is 1985
Now, does this mean we should buy American cars? Not at all... you should buy what you like. But the basic (and very popular in Washington) premise that American manufacturers cannot compete/do not make good cars is just not true.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

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[jeff968]

I would buy American again if they made a product that i wanted. I've purchased many new Chrysler products and had great luck with them. Two Jeeps that were still going after 150K miles and a number of front wheel drive Dodges including a 1990 Dodge Shadow with a VNT (variable nozel turbo). I've been with German vehicles since the late ninties and have good luck with my 2 4 cylinder Audi's and our 02 MB ML320 (now with 115K miles). I've heard of japenese vehicles with just as many problems. My brother purchased an Acura MDX at the same time we got the ML and he is on his third transmission. My neighbor up the street has a 2001 toyota land cruiser that just ate its tranny and cost him almost $4K. I look forward to the day I purchase another new domestic auto but my next one looks to be a VW Tiguan! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

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[jeffski1]

I know how to fix the US auto industry...let Apple have a crack at it. Roll out the iCar. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]

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[Cloud9...68]

Consumer Reports' 2009 annual auto includes an interesting "report card" on all the auto makers, in which they produce a weighted score based on a combination of CU's overall rating on the "goodness" of the aggregate models in the companies' lineup (performance, comfort, safety, fuel economy, etc.) and the average reliability rating of the model line. The result?

Chrysler: Dead last (by a huge margin)
GM: Second-to-last
Ford: Fourth from last

No, not all domestic cars are crap, but a large percentage of the models just don't measure up well against the ever-improving competition. I would like to buy a US-made car, but I doubt I'm going to any time soon.

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=69301:date=Mar 24 2009, 04:22 PM:name=jeffski1)-->QUOTE (jeffski1 @ Mar 24 2009, 04:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I know how to fix the US auto industry...let Apple have a crack at it. Roll out the iCar. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


truer words were never spoken [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img] Jobs - Iacocca at the helm, and we're off to the races

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[jeff968]

<!--quoteo(post=69302:date=Mar 24 2009, 07:23 PM:name=Cloud9...68)-->QUOTE (Cloud9...68 @ Mar 24 2009, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Consumer Reports' 2009 annual auto includes an interesting "report card"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

IMHO Consumer reports should stick to blenders. They have always downed the cars that I have had great luck with and praised cars that I know have plenty of problems. I swear they are owned by Toyota. I look to car magazines for information on cars, not CR. Do one thing well or many things mediocre.

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[flash]

ok - here's how dumb american car companies are (at least GM):

tonight we went down to convert the lease on the denali to a purchase - we leased it for tax reasons, but always intended to buy it at the end - we still have 10 months to go, but with the sales tax here taking a big jump next week, it seemed to make sense to do it now - we already had good paper, but thought "what the heck? let's see if they can beat it" figuring that since the market was so dead, and this was a higher mileage lease return, that they would say "we don't want that thing back - give them whatever they want"

well, in short, the answer was "no" - no credit issues - nothing like that - they just couldn't or wouldn't deal - i understand not wanting to do another lease - GM doesn't want to lease anything right now - but not willing to take found money and sell us a car they don't want back?

just plain dumb

so, we're taking our business elsewhere - no worries

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[stewhatch]

I feel I must add - my '99 Jeep Grand Cherokee has 269,000 miles, all on the same motor (4.0 liter inline 6) and all I've ever done to it besides oil / filters / belts is change one set of plugs, a water pump at 170,000, brake rotors (twice) and pads (four times). It still has the original exhaust! This car starts first time, every time even in sub-zero temp. And, with my AWD + snow tires I am unstoppable - often cutting the first path thru 1-2 feet of snow during a snowstorm. There's zero rust anywhere and the only problem I have is the rear windows don't operate. It's a daily driver, often driven 6-7 hrs per leg at 75-80 mph. Hard to find fault with this car, let alone part with it and buy an unknown. Just my $0.02.

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[968Syncro]

<!--quoteo(post=69313:date=Mar 24 2009, 07:51 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Mar 24 2009, 07:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->so, we're taking our business elsewhere - no worries<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So Flash, you're gonna need a new tow vehicle, may I suggest one on the VW/Porsche family, one that is true to my heart, so <b>please </b>get a Syncro like this:

   
   
   

You can put a 250 HP Subaru engine in. First cousin to our Porsches, can stay in the family. Oh, you're probably a Cayenne guy, I can tell. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

German engineering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf_JiYYDWOE

Roland

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[Cloud9...68]

<!--quoteo(post=69312:date=Mar 24 2009, 09:39 PM:name=jeff968)-->QUOTE (jeff968 @ Mar 24 2009, 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->IMHO Consumer reports should stick to blenders. They have always downed the cars that I have had great luck with and praised cars that I know have plenty of problems. I swear they are owned by Toyota. I look to car magazines for information on cars, not CR. Do one thing well or many things mediocre.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely (but respectfully) disagree. While you, and many others, can rightfully cite anecdotal experiences that go counter to CU's reams of data (I personally own a 2003 Chrysler Town & Country that's actually been fairly reliable) the fact is that these guys work from a huge data base that averages out these individual anomolies and provides the closest thing available to the unvarnished truth. Plus, they don't take any ad revenue from anybody. They're certainly not a car enthusiast magazine (I'm a loyal subscriber to Car & Driver for that fix), but their test methods are highly objective. And they're heaped great praise on the occasional good American car (they said, for example, that the Cadillac CTS rivals anything from Germany in its class, and were also very positive about the Chevy Malibu), so I think their apparent bias toward Japanese cars is based on the evidence, not on any particular wish to see the domestics fail. Your own experience may run counter to CU's data, but that's kind of like taking the fact that George Burns lived to be 100 as evidence that smoking cigars is good for your health.

Sorry to sound a little harsh, but I'm just a huge believer in the power of thoughtful analysis of statistically valid data, which, from all evidence, appears to be what CU provides. And I think CUs conclusions about the Big 3 very accurately capture a major driving force behind their downward market share spiral over the last few decades, to get back on topic.

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[DayDreamer]

(Very big generalisation, so get too mad..)
My observation from outside of the States on America's love affair with the car. When the rest of the world was trying to survive, USA fell in love with the first Fords and it became accesible to almost everyman. Cars in general have been relatively cheap and afforable for most people. Also, with open spaces that you enjoy, a car was a necessity in order to get around. This set the scene for the car to be seen as a commodity/consumable. It was treated like the washing machine, the vacuum clean, the toaster and the kettle. It was an item that was easy and relatively cheap to replace. (Look how badly some people treat their cars - Pimp My Ride) The big 3 loved this as sales volumes hid the the inefficiencies.

Europe, on the other hand, had dense populations, busy cities and no 'space' to cruise in. They had public transport. The need for the car was not as high, so volumns where less and hence prices where higher. If someone was going to buy a car, it was for a longer period due to the price and hence the expectation for better quality. The car was not seen as a commodity, but a luxury, and they where willing to pay for quality. European car manufacturers have been under pressure to keep things as efficient as possible, provide quality and stay in business for longer than the big 3.

The East, to play catchup, took the page from the US, and the Europeans, first, the US, get them out there, cheaper than the rival, one they had market, share, bump up quality to european standards.

We here is South Africa, we have our fair share of Japanese and Korean cars, but most households have 2 cars (no safe public transport). Audi, BWM, MERC and VW and Toyota are main choices. Cars are expensive here and and an entry level car is about an 2-3 years average earnings. This means that when we buy we want quality, and reliability, hence the makes that do well here. In the last 2-3 years, the big 3 have been sending their stuff here, cheaper yes, but interiors, and finishing are honestly crap. The plastics are worse than my kids toys. I won't buy them as I can afford not to. I have only ever own VW, Audi and Porsche, and I can't go back.

Would you buy a Big 3 car with german quality and european prices? You might, but the average American will not.

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[flash]

you have hit the nail on the head regarding the media and their hype - when you remove the big advertising machine from the equation, you get more honest results - people buy what they really want when they are given a real chance

in no way am i voicing an opinion one way or the other regarding which i prefer either - i like the rig we have, problems and all, and to prove the point, we are purchasing it today - however, if a foreign company made what we want for that use, we'd look at that too - conversely if an american company made a sportscar i liked, i'd buy that - i've owned over 40 cars, and they are from all over the globe - i buy what i like for the specific reasons unique to each purchase

consumer reports may claim to be free of influence, but they wouldn't be in business without the american consumer - therefore, a certain amount of rose tinted opinion should be expected in provision of a bit of a preference for those products, especially when it comes to economically critical industries like the automotive industry - that lobby is one of the strongest - i'm not saying they go out of their way to skew opinion, or that they are totally corrupt, or anything of the sort - i'm just saying there are a lot of ways to spin the surveys - i've gotten a few over the years from them and sometimes the wording of the questions leads the desired answer - if somebody wanted to get a set of biased answers, it isn't hard to structure the questions to get them

that's why i look at service records, real data, and opinions of people i know with a particular car - i also go down to the dealership and check out the service area to see what kinds of jobs they have in there, and how common they are - i talk to the mechanics directly - you'd be surprised at what you can find out in 15 minutes for the cost of a cup of coffee

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[RPM]

As to Consumer Reports:

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->... the fact is that these guys work from a huge data base...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

All of their data is self-reported by CR subscribers, and that the demographic of CR subscribers is not a fair representation of the general public - in either numbers or socio/economic status. Yes, there are a lot of these reporters, but what CR does not disclose is the actual raw numbers that lead to their little red and black circles. Just how many reports from a specific model do they need to set their tolerance and outcomes? Is the feedback for Honda Accords, say from 10,000 owners, comparable to the feedback for a lower production car like a Porsche, where they may only get 100 reports? Can you actually compare different vehicles reliabilty with such wildly different data? (I work at SAS, all we do is data, the answer is NO!).

CR is great for reviews and tests of consumer products. When I want to buy a new TV or a blender, that is where I go. But for automobile ratings, related to either satisfaction or reliablity, I go with JD Power. And by coincidence, Buick just took first place in their quality rankings.

Does this mean that I will drive a Buick? Hell no! Only that there is a lot of anti-American car rhetoric and bias that is not backed up by the specifics of the newest models coming out from GM and Ford. Is the CTS better than a 5 series BMW? No. But it is close - and $15,000 less expensive. Is there a better performance bargain on the planet than a Corvette?

And another thing, the fact that you might not want to buy a sedan, or you think a "CTS coupe is too big," is not in any way related to the quality or value of that car. European cars have more style and performance, they are also a lot more expensive! This discussion had melded apples and oranges in a way that truly astounds me.

And finally, Flash - the fact that GMC is not doing much loan business during this financial nightmare period (even with the best qualified buyers) does not impugn the quality of your Denali. The very fact that you wanted to keep it tells me it must be a damned good vehicle...

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[rhudeboye]

I no longer value the "best of" opinions of car magazines. Mags like C&D and Motor Trend etc. are a good source for keeping up with new developments and you coould learn a thing or two about a cars features. But when it comes to "best of" The catagories could be set in such a way that slants in the favor of which ever car they choose. case in point. I was reading a C&D and they were doing a best of with 3 sports cars. One of the catagories were trunk space?? The skyline got a high score while the porsche scored poorly. Another was road noise. They even had a catagory called the cool factor? Now how subjective is that? At the end of the "tests" the Skyline wins by a small margin. Remove the stupid categories and it would have lost.

Then there's the flip flops. In the beginning they loved the skyline, from July - Nov it seemed to be, if not the cover article, inside it was continually praised. Could do no wrong. Was the best car money could buy. But now in 2009, it just ended dead last against the new flavor of the month, The ZR1. I also have the issue comparing the New accord, the then 8 month old Camry, the Malibu and ahhh, I forget the 4th car. The Camry came in 3rd. Later the Altima was released. In that issue they ran another face off. This time the Camry took 1st. Suddenly they loved everything about the car and this time around the flaws were minimal.

I bet many of you get both C&D and Motor trend so please excuse me for crossing the magazines if I did so. I'm sure I got some of this wrong as I dont recall it exactly but I'm sure of the 3rd to 1st and the flip flop on the skyline.

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[PorscheDude]

How many of these CR subscribers truly know cars?
Take the data with a grain of salt.

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[biotechee]

I voted "note likely".

For me:

Chrysler = never
GM = probably never (at least new anyway but I do like the most recent GTO!)
Ford = small chance (F150, Fusion, Expedition)

The last time I had an American car was in 1989, and it was a 1966 Ford Mustang.

For the record, I don't put a lot of value in CR or JDP for that matter. May not be logical, may not be statistical, but so far I've either made the right choices with the new vehicles I did buy or I'm lucky.

At the end of the day, I will buy what appeals to me. And that which appeals to me is a combination of form, function, and reliability. For my money, nearly all Big 3 offerings fall short in generally 2 or more of those factors.

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[rhudeboye]

<!--quoteo(post=69325:date=Mar 25 2009, 08:21 AM:name=RPM)-->QUOTE (RPM @ Mar 25 2009, 08:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->As to Consumer Reports:
but what CR does not disclose is the actual raw numbers that lead to their little red and black circles.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Does someone have the front pages of the CR to scan. I recall an explanation being in print as to how the testing results came about. Not sure if raw numbers are there or not but curios as to what it says and how valid the testing criteria is.

Before my subscription ran out, I found that it was pretty accurate with my own feelings on the cars I have owned, as well as with friends cars and their experiences.

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[p65356sc]

I gotta say I drove my buddies loaded new Buick........for the price $21K I was very impressed.

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