[Rap]

Spice and bath salts are some serious s*** man. We see kids and adults totally whacked. Bath salts can recrystallize long after the initial usage. Craig I remember walking the halls of a girls school. It was like picking candy. Some people do buy condos for their kids during their stay at school. If you can flip them at a profit I suppose it's not a bad deal for both parents and their kids. However, part of growing up can be that first ratty apartment that you loved. Was for me. Dave was that the son at Paso you were talking about? He was a fine young man. I've had two daughter struggle withe addictions. By the grace of God, AA and a little luck they are still alive and now doing well.

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[craigawoodman]

Rap,



Synthetic dope is not synthetic dope - the only thing it has in common with pot is that it mimics the effects, but can be up to 100x more powerful. As for Meth, and "bath salts" which is only a marketing name - the variety of chemical types can give wildly varying effects and you don't know what type you are getting or at what level - talk about Russian roulette. One of the pills that they showed us contained around 8 different drugs, Ecstasy, <acronym title='Limited Slip Differential'>LSD</acronym> - am made new version (2x), synthetic cannibas, caffeine, meth, etc. nasty stuff.



I asked if I could get the presentation to show my kids - but couldn't. Scared the hell out of me, we have people driving trucks around that weigh 600 metric tonnes at 60km/h that could be on this crap. Add to the the abuse of prescription drugs (which is more prevalent than illegal drugs) and it is a scary picture. Recent testing for synthetic pot (of which they can only test around 6 of the 35 known varieties of chemical compounds) has shown a 10% usage rate within mining.



My nieces told me that it was easier to buy drugs than alcohol - so that is what kids do to go to parties. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.



All I know is that we have had a 30 year war on drugs and we are losing - badly. Addicts can now pack a portable meth lab into an esky and use it in a mine site room, or motel.



It was the best wake-up call I have had regarding drugs. Been slapped a lot on this topic in the last two months.



So slightly off topic - but how do you keep your kids safe from this crap? I was talking with guys on the shop floor (the town is only fairly small -5,000 residents or so), if there was a kiddy fiddler in town, the town would be up in arms, but most people know who the druggies are, but no-one dons them into the police. People know who is using within the workforce, but nothing is said. The drug dealers possibly do more harm to more people than the kiddy fiddlers, but we accept and tolerate this. If it was your kids getting the drugs, how would you feel?



I know it is different in bigger cities than smaller towns, but if you can go to jail for knowingly infecting a person with HIV, why don't we apply the same logic to someone who supplies meth, or similar? An eye, for an eye?



I don't know what I would do if someone got my kids hooked on serious drugs, but removing the supply would be top of the list.

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[94SilverCab]

[quote name='DaveN' timestamp='1370212174' post='143496']

I'll just chime in briefly and concur with ds968. Some people think our 2 boys are spoiled with food, laundry, their own car for University (93 Jetta, 96 Camry), guitars (my 19 year old has 10ks worth-sheesh!). But, they get/got great marks(my oldest is 26 with a degree in Marine Biolog) , don't smoke, dont do drugs, respect anyone they meet and get along great with seniors; one of my wife's big beefs with young people today.

So I have a big overdraft and a mortgage, sort of worth it in the long run.



PS the 26 year old doesn't live here anymore, I'm soft not stupid :-D

[/quote]



Dave, your son is terrific...you should bottle your formula. I spent some quality time with him at Paso and he was a pleasure.



Jay

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[tamathumper]

+1, quality young man.

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[Rap]

Craig, demand not supply is what needs to be curtailed. This is like a Sify movie where you kill one zombie and three pop up. Parental communication and knowing who what where and how your kids are acting is another key. None of these is a guarantee though. Oddly enough for me, legalizing distribution centers and taxing drugs provides some measure of control. I'm not for legalization but we are afraid to discuss it and it is the white elephant in the room! How many of these parents who would be pissed that a child molester is in town use drugs themselves or even tangentially make money from the trade?

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[craigawoodman]

Rap,



Science tells us that if you walk by something three time your brain then accepts it as normal. So if we see something as wrong, unless we deal with it, yep, we condone it.



Agree with parents setting the example. Hard to tell your kids not to do drugs if you do. Same for alcohol, etc. they learn from an early age.



You see the same thing with parents telling their kids not to F&$cking swear at them. Kettle versus pot scenario.



I refer to Einsteins theory if lunacy - "if you do what you did yesterday today and expect a different result, you are an idiot". If you want a different result, do something/anything different.



What we have been doing is not working. Yes it would be good to understand why kids/people need to drug themselves, what is missing that makes you want to do it. Not having done drugs, I cannot answer this. It is not a simple issue, but we need to try something different, even if it is to remove demand.



If you do drugs and want to get off them, the government provides known purity and dosage to "weed" you off and remove demand. Remove demand, reduce price, reduce motivation to trade.



Not sure what will work, but we need to experiment and learn.

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[Rap]

Most do drugs to be part of. I did. Then the vicious cycle can begin. Only today the drugs are much more potent than when we where young. It never occurred to me to do heroin, scared me actually. The 80's made doing white powder fashionable to white people and the jump to heroin was an easy thing to understand. Now everyone looks at heroin as something cool to do. Oh don't worry I won't get hooked only my friends or dumb people let that happen to them. By the time they realize the fallacy to that insaneness ops their hooked! Education and demand are areas to invest in. Supply always follows demand.

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[lbpesq]

"Not having done drugs, I cannot answer this."



Really? No coffee (caffeine/speed)? No alcohol? No Viagra? No Vicodin? Don't kid yourself, it is a war on SOME drugs. And under it's banner the U.S. has curtailed individual rights, obliterated several generations' respect for law enforcement, developed a prison industrial complex that incarcerates a far greater percentage of its population than any other nation on earth, nearly gone broke doing it, and done virtually nothing to control drugs. A 12 year old can obtain a bag of weed easier than a bottle of Jack Daniels. But prison guards in California can average over $100,000 a year. Gotta keep those guards and cops happy!

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[Cloud9...68]

Hoo-boy. Drugs, gas prices, alternative fuels, gun rights, and climate change. The eternal debate continues... <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ph34r.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[ds968]

Lol, this all started with a transmission repair vs alternatives question...but as Ian Drury or Warren Zevon put it.. " sex and drugs and rock-n-roll " , or "lawyers guns and money " always makes for a more compelling thread discussion on our forum, so here we are again :-) :-)

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[craigawoodman]

Caffeine, alcohol, aspirin, etc yes. Dope (aptly named), speed, heroin, cocaine, ecstasy, <acronym title='Limited Slip Differential'>LSD</acronym>, meth, etc - no.



All Governments control drugs. That is partly why the medical industry exists.



Driving under the influence of any drug (alcohol, etc) is a poor choice. Lets not limit it to driving, operating machinery. It is not just the immediate impact of the drug, it is also the after effects, cravings, withdrawals, etc that distract or disrupt a persons ability to do a task.



I don't have the answer to solve the problem, but we have managed to live tens of thousands of years without needing the number and variety of drugs we currently have. What has changed?



Scientists have done experiments where animals could stimulate the pleasure centers of their brain remotely - so what did they do, they did it until they died. We can wire this into humans if we want, but we don't. We all don't walk down the street and try to hump everything we see, so we can control our behavior (a requirement of any social creature), so why can't we do the same thing with drugs. We don't eat every time we pass the fridge, etc.



Is it just that our ability to produce a chemical cocktail that stimulates us has improved to the point where the effects are over the top. Will we end up lifeless sloths in a couch, simply being medicated to blissful nirvana?



Like all problems, it is a complex one. Some deal, because it is high risk and high reward - so attractive. Some use to escape other issues, PWTSS, family stress, etc. so the solution would have to be multi- focused.



Do I worry that we are going to end up with lots of mentally ill people from the drugs that are being created - you bet.



Who ends up paying for that? The poor schmucks who are responsible and try to do the right thing and get ahead. Is this the message we should be putting out there. Do drugs and get looked after, don't do drugs and do the hard yards and get screwed by those that don't.



What is the minimum requirements to be a positive part of any society and enjoy its benefits?

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[Rap]

Speak for yourself pal. There are lots things I want to hump when I walk down the street! But I also own a mirror. Our health care system would prefer to diagnose someone with mental health problems because its cheaper to give them pills and everyone walks away happy. Most parent would prefer little Susie or johnie have mental health issues than be drug addicts.

Alcohol has always been a part of various societies. Granted there are some exceptions. So stimulants and depressants have been around forever. They are just better now, mass produced, easy to get and someone else pays for it. We are back to that someone else pays for it again factor.

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[tamathumper]

Will we end up lifeless sloths in a couch, simply being medicated to blissful nirvana?

We have exactly that today in America, and the drug is "reality television". Even the Romans knew that if you give the masses their "bread and circus" you can keep them passive and control them more readily. It's when their distractions cease to work that you have to worry about angry mobs.

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[Cloud9...68]

OK, you've hit one of my hot buttons. Yes, "Reality TV" is clear evidence we're (the masses, at least) going down to tubes. I've never seen such unadulterated crap in all my life. Makes any Cheech & Chong movie look like the Harvard debate team in action.

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[ds968]

[quote name='Cloud9...68' timestamp='1370395063' post='143607']OK, you've hit one of my hot buttons. Yes, "Reality TV" is clear evidence we're (the masses, at least) going down to tubes. I've never seen such unadulterated crap in all my life. Makes any Cheech & Chong movie look like the Harvard debate team in action.[/quote]



+ 1 . I refuse to spend a second of my day watching " reality TV " , and no matter how exaggerated the reality may be in order to to increase tne production value and ratings, fact that people of that ilk even exist and are not ashamed to be exposed on national tv, and the fact that others watch that circus , is a sad statement of this society. So call me a snob ( but do refer to the graph I put up on tne

" thank you and goodnight " thread which pretty much depicts just how much I care ;-). )

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[Rap]

Such a narrow minded individual. You must be an engineer! Perhaps if you invested in the companies producing these shows you might feel better. Low cost of production, heavy audience watch, expensive ads all equal a cost benefit ratio that leaves most of production tv in the dust. And if your snookie you can be a dope and crappy actress and still rake in the dough. Ain't America great? Lol

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[Scott Collins]

Excellent discussion.



I'm 45, and 20 of those years have been spent teaching, from grades1 and 2 and 6-sophomore in college.



Solid alert and aware parents who communicate and do things with their children is key. Divorce really, really

screws up families and especially children. Lots of other things do as well, like disengaged or absentee parents,

and parents who have an overly optimistic view of their kids.



Cultivating goals, aspirations, and dreams in young people is key. If they have some direction and plans, things that

are jeopardized by poor choices, the are less likely to make the really big mistakes, like DWI or worse.



Solid schooling with drug awareness and ani-bullying programs is key.



Freewill - works both ways and when combined with hormones and formative years, you get a little bit of

everything.



My usual rant to my students is that they are called the "Trophy Generation" for good reason. I tell them that they don't know when to stop talking, think they can listen with their mouths, and they have their paths provided for them, and that they all get a trophy regardless of level of

effort or accomplishment. They don't learn lessons from failures, such as how to properly respond to losing, and

how to improve whatever thing it is you lost or failed at. They are weak mentally because they have been told they are great, and if they fail at something, instead of

trying harder, they will say something like, "Oh, that's not my thing", and go try something else for a few months before

bailing on that as well.



The first time they hear this, mouths fall open. I regularly crush my middle schoolers, but it's not easy to get and hold their attention. Once I have this, I build them back up and tell them

that I expect them to object strongly to what I have said, and I expect that they prove me and everyone else wrong. I tell them

they should be offended and work hard to make sure what I expressed is never true. Lightbulbs sometimes go on at this point. I let them know I think they are great kids who have to prove themselves and should not be ashamed to do it.



And lastly, IMHO, as far as "network TV" is concerned. I consider it merely a vehicle designed to sell ads. Kids don't need it at all.

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[craigawoodman]

Rap,



Wanting to hump everything and then trying to actually do it are two different things. There is lots of eye candy around (particularly as we get older - weren't we much choosier when younger?), but I go back to a joke I once got. It had a photo of a sexy blonde in a skimpy bikini posed suggestively against a coconut tree - up the top of the photo it said - "no matter what you may be thinking now", then, you scrolled down past the blonde and at the bottom it said - "somewhere, some guy is absolutely fed up with all of her crap!".



Looking is one thing, society getting its gear off on Main Street and going the rumpy pumpy at every opportunity is not how we are socially wired - but technically we all could. So why the seemingly larger take up of what are far more addictive and dangerous drugs?



Are we dumbing down everything (just Google it)? I agree that reality tv is just crap, I cannot get into it, but then most tv shows don't crank my handle any more. I love Top Gear because of the cars and the humour/jokes that they play on each other. It is just like three friends taking the piss out of each other.



Has the immediate gratification of today's society got something to do with it? Want to be a rock star, go on a tv show, not grind and scrape for several years to build a following and then "get discovered". Instant celebrity - zero substance, all artificially manufactured and flavoured.



I can only ask questions, as am really stumped at what the answers could be.



Are we really back to the 1980's "greed is good"? - invest in shows, low cost, high advertising, etc. what happened to some moral values - it also has to be good for you, or entertaining, or reflect societies values - not push their boundaries just to shock and sensationalise the show?



Are we simply becoming like the last days of the Roman Empire? Hedonistic pleasure at any cost, even societies collapse?

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[tamathumper]

A common thread in all of this? For some reason in America today, few people are held accountable, and everyone who can claim "disadvantage" is protected from having to suffer consequences. Every kid gets a trophy, lest they feel like they lost. Everyone who wants a welfare check gets one, lest they feel disadvantaged.



The worst thing you can be in America right now is the person with "something to lose", because there are so many people with "nothing to lose" and such a willing "redistributive" government, that sooner rather than later you're all going to be equal... <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[Cloud9...68]

Not to get too philosophical here, but to add to some of the excellent points already made, I'm a firm believer that struggle against adversity is a necessary condtion for humans to thrive. Maybe life has just gotten too easy, and a bit too "guaranteed," to Tama's point above. I'm no prude (how many people would admit to being one, though...?), but I remember for a few months after 911, there was a refreshing return to a sort of subdued wholesomeness, for lack of a better word - vulgarity in all its forms temporarily receded into the background for awhile, and I have to say, it was actually kind of nice. Another example is the recent Boston Marathon bombing - the way many people instinctively moved toward the blast to help the injured. Incredible. And there's a very obvious reason the people who fought in WWII are considered the Greatest Generation.



Reality TV, anything on MTV, much of talk radio - a sizable chunk of what passes for "pop culture", for that matter, are all examples of the antithesis of humans at their best, and all seem to be born out of a society with too much time on its hands, and one which has become too comfortable for many to bother filling those empty hours with anything very productive.



I'm generalizing, of course, and there are still tons of examples of decent, highly-motivated individuals who will, in my opinion, keep society plodding forward. Much has been made of the "wealth gap" in this country. That doesn't worry me. What I see as a bigger threat is the "achievement gap" between those willing to remain sober and make the necessary sacrifices to live productive lives that contribute positively to society, and the vast group doped-out, uninformed, lazy underachievers seemingly surgically attached to their couches staring slack-jawed at hours of reruns of Jersey Shore.

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