[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=72343:date=May 21 2009, 11:09 AM:name=biotechee)-->QUOTE (biotechee @ May 21 2009, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Irregardless of the fact that you should have your head examined ( [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img] ), I'd be willing to participate in this provided some agreed upon structure is generated and adhered to.... I think it is a great idea and I for one would certainly appreciate it if I ever found myself in such a situation.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Jim, if my memory still serves me I believe you were one of the members who first replied to that thread on ".net ",
many moons ago, essentially echoing what you posted now.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

<!--quoteo(post=72345:date=May 21 2009, 12:35 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ May 21 2009, 12:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->the website cannot participate in such an arrangement - essentially it constitutes an insurance fund, which is carefully governed by law - also, we do not want to be in the position of being the one to make the decision of who receives the benefits paid out from that fund

but, if somebody wants to undertake this on their own, we have no issue with a thread to that effect being pinned here - we merely cannot participate in the fund beyond that<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Actually, no it does not.. to constitute an insurance mechanism, pre-funding would be required ( premiums if you will ) or an infusion of capital to set up a reserve of sorts. This is a post-fact, voluntary contribution mechanism, and I may be wrong but I do not believe there are governing restrictions which would apply ..I will check to confirm though. Also I don't see how the forum management or ownership would be in any position to decide who gets the money - the decision to contribute to a particular individual is made by the collective, the forum would just facilitate the transactiion / be a conduit for such..

But I understand there are many unknowns as to how exactly such an inititiative may be viewed and the forum's role in it. If you're uncomfortable with whatever that role is, or whatever the reason, we have to respect that but
at least it sounds like you're leaving a window open for using the forum as a communication tool if someone decides to set this up outside the forum structure. That might be tough though. Besides, if I collect all the money I might be tempted to send the car owner a postcard from Hawaii with " sorry to hear about your misfortune dude, wish you were here though - weather's great " . Kidding aside, maybe we should indeed set up a different thread and at least discuss if this is feasible..

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[Johannvb]

Instead of someone collecting the money, the person with the problem can simply provide their paypall details and the people that wish to help out can donate money via paypall. This way there is no risk of a middle man running of to Hawaii [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=72350:date=May 21 2009, 02:07 PM:name=Johannvb)-->QUOTE (Johannvb @ May 21 2009, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Instead of someone collecting the money, the person with the problem can simply provide their paypall details and the people that wish to help out can donate money via paypall. This way there is no risk of a middle man running of to Hawaii [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

great idea ! still, we need to start another thread I think, so as to reach a consensus on some ground rules ( not to imply that anyone would be dishonest but..) there has to be a way to first verify ownership of the 968 , validation of the repair bill, and whatever other factors need to be considered . and then if anyone wants to make ( let's say we determine that $ 50 is a resonable amount, and for the reasons stated earlier ) that contribution to that paypal account - we can give it a shot.

If that's ok with the forum owners ( starting a thread to address this, that is.. ) I'll initiate it.

I'm also going to check into any legal, tax, etc. implications or issues and I suggest anyone else that has friends, relatives, contacts, in those domains do the same to see if we may be doing something that constituites anything other than a good samaritan gesture..

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[flash]

i've been in this situation before with a car club that wanted to do the same thing - the attorneys advised that it was both not a good idea, and there were regulations about such things - multiple people would be contributing to a fund, each in an amount less than what would be projected to be drawn out by the sum in the event of a catastrophe - that is the same as purchasing a car warranty, which is technically an insurance policy, with a one time premium, the same as the ones i have purchased - the only difference is that more than one person is contributing to it, which makes it even more like an insurace policy - technically there could be an expectation that every contributor wold ahve access to those funds in the event of a catastrophe

there are very clear lines there that we cannot cross and liabilities we do not want to incur

however, using the site to allow people to contact one another for such a thing is not an issue - we just cannot participate in any way to that fund

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[ds968]

In that sense, Johann's idea may be an optimum solution. There's no middle man or entity participating with access to any of the funds that are sent to the individual who suffered the loss... and that individual may or may not receive anything so there is no expressed or even implied warranty created here, and thus no expectations..

It's no different than some philanthropist ( hey, I've been called that.. oh wait, I think it was philanderer.. same thing no ? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img] ) learning of your misfortune by reading about it on the web, and he/she decides to be an anonymous benefactor sending you a check for the million dollars you lost crashing your Bugatti. Well, something like that, but on a smaller scale [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

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[josephsc]

I think prevention (before a catastrophe) is more important than insurance (after a catastrophe) -- and many groups have organized "timing belt parties" for such occasions. You just need some tools, a place to host, a BBQ, some beers and a community of people.

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[xrad]

Flash:

Can you start a poll:
Which belt do you have:

Gates/Conti/Dayco/other



HAve you had a failure

1) Contitech failure: Yes /no
2) Dayco Failure Yes /no
3) Gates failure Yes/No
4) other failure Yes/no

Or however you want to tally numbers. Let's gather some infor here...

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[biotechee]

<!--quoteo(post=72347:date=May 21 2009, 04:52 PM:name=ds968)-->QUOTE (ds968 @ May 21 2009, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Jim, if my memory still serves me I believe you were one of the members who first replied to that thread on ".net ",
many moons ago, essentially echoing what you posted now.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Geez- How the hell can you remember that far back? I can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning....! And if I did say I would support it, I'm glad I am consistent! I could run for public office!!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]

I'll have to look at my belt- no clue what is on there right now. Just know that it was in good shape when Pete checked it in March. Have to do an inspection in the Fall before the Winter slumber.

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[ds968]

I have to wonder what makes these belts so fragile compared to, say, belts in Nissans for example ? I have a '98 Pathfinder and the mfg. suggested interval for the belt replacement is 110k miles. I'm almost there in miles but the belt is 11 years old and now that I've had the disaster with my 968, I set up an appointment tomorrow to replace the Nissan belt. So I got on a Nissan forum just to see what experiences others have had with their belts ( if they lasted 100k+ miles, consistent with the mfg interval indication for a change or they had problems breaking as ours do ..after all, rubber is rubber, right ?! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif[/img] ). To put this in perspective, whereas we have a few hundred members and know of several failures already, some even at 20k miles, some at 45 k miles, others maybe a bit more .. the Nissan forum has tens of thousands of members and doing a search on timing belts failures, there was ONLY ONE known / reported failure at 150k miles.. responses on the topic suggested the majority of owners don't even change the belts at 110k miles. Many have 200k+ miles on their cars with original belts still on. Folks, these are not chains, they're rubber belts. So WTF ??!!! I can only think this is due to our cars having a high performance, aluminum engine which must stress the living daylights out of these belts ! What else could it be ? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif[/img]

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[flash]

this one is not that hard to figure out - our car has something that most don't

the problem is generally NOT the timing belt - you could probably run almost anything there, as long as your hydraulic tensioner is fully functioning - usually the only reason the timing belt fails is due to the balance belt failing and then taking the timing belt out with it

the problem is the balance shaft belt - the design is very poor - there are two main issues i see with it:

1. manual tensioning required - this is a horrible idea, and enters into the equation far too many variables like how long the car has been sitting, heat cycles, age, mileage, abruptness of rev changes, etc

2. the tension on the belt is insufficient to allow for the necessary tolerances to prevent it from slipping, skipping or ripping, putting you squarely back into dealing with problem 1

the answer is a balance shaft belt that does not stretch - KEVLAR

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[Johannvb]

Another common mistake that leads to belt failure is installing the balance belt inside out. Apparently this mistake is easily made. When I had my water pump issue last year, my mechanic showed me that my balance belt was put on inside out and that caused small cracks in the valleys between nearly every tooth. I can't remember which side is which, but I guess the branding should be on the outside.

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[ether_joe]

ohai guys, DAN BEST OF LUCK BUDDY! Hang in there.

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[ds968]

thanks ... sigh, this just sucks big time; even if there is good news it will still be bad news.. so keeping fingers crossed that it's bad news "-" instead of bad news "+" [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif[/img]

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[Cloud9...68]

<!--quoteo(post=72390:date=May 22 2009, 01:27 PM:name=Johannvb)-->QUOTE (Johannvb @ May 22 2009, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Another common mistake that leads to belt failure is installing the balance belt inside out. Apparently this mistake is easily made. When I had my water pump issue last year, my mechanic showed me that my balance belt was put on inside out and that caused small cracks in the valleys between nearly every tooth. I can't remember which side is which, but I guess the branding should be on the outside.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's very strange. A person would have to really work at it to put the balance shaft belt on inside out. First, they'd have to twist it out of its natural correct orientation. Then, they'd have to hold it in this weird position while threading it around the pulleys. This is very puzzling [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif[/img]

In my case, whoever put on the balance shaft that was on the car when I bought it used the wrong size. It was the narrower 944 model (I can't remember what width), so the edges of the belt didn't seat against the inside edges of the pullies. I think this must have caused the belt to "wander" along the pulley, causing the early failure. Fortunately, it didn't snap, so there was no damage done, just a bunch of sheared teeth off the balance shaft belt, causing it to get way out of alignment.

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[rxter]

Would be real helpful if any of you mechanically inclined gents could post a few pics on how to check these belts. You've all got me thoroughly paranoid now, but I've no clue how to check the belts and I'm keeping the car away from teh mechanic until my wallet cools down from the last visit...

Thanks

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[xrad]

inside out??? geeze.......

Just when you think you have seen it all..... Probably the same 'mechanic/owner' that put summer air in the tires and greased the battery...

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[ds968]

Ok, here's a very brief update , I'll post details and photos during the weekend.

Bad news : Every single valve bent.. and considerably so. Complete head job to follow - valves, lifters, guides, etc..
Good news: No pistons / cylinder damage
Weird news: Balance belt nicely in place, not even loose really.. timing belt broke and shredded all by itself.

I'm changing just about everything " while in there " , even if parts look fine : rollers, tensioners, pulleys, seals, o-rings, the water pump, variocam pads and chain, yada, yada..

Bad news: probably $ 5,000 + when all gets added up
Good news: still a lot cheaper than having had to also rebuild cylinders and pistons

More details to follow soon..

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[josephsc]

Ouch! Sorry to hear that -- that's pretty big price tag....

Just a thought: It might come out to be about the same either way, but..... does it make any sense to obtain and rebuild a used head, rather than rebuilt a completely busted head? There's a used head here: OKForeign Ebay ad.

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=72794:date=May 29 2009, 12:24 PM:name=josephsc)-->QUOTE (josephsc @ May 29 2009, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Ouch! Sorry to hear that -- that's pretty big price tag....
Just a thought: It might come out to be about the same either way, but..... does it make any sense to obtain and rebuild a used head, rather than rebuilt a completely busted head? There's a used head here: OKForeign Ebay ad.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Actually, the price difference b/w buying a ready made ( rebuilt ) head and what will be done on mine is not all that significant.. a couple of hundred bucks may be.
Also, this is a local shop that does just that kind of specialized work for Porsches, BMWs and MBZs for 25 years and my mechanic who has used them for just about that
long with consistently flawless results will warranty their work as well.. anything goes wrong he'll redo everything for free ( and so will the shop ). To me that's worth the extra cost.

BTW, that estimated $ 5k tag includes everything ( parts an labor ) that will be done to the car, the head job by itself is about $1,500 parts and labor, including the machine shop costs.

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[Eric_K]

I'd be sure to add the tensioner stud to the "while you are in there" list. I'm sure it is rarely changed but it can make a real mess of things if it lets go.
http://www.968forums.com/index.php?showtopic=4583

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