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Timing Belt
#21

there is a mirror tool, though i have yet to find it - i made my own, and now can't find it either
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#22

<!--quoteo(post=76088:date=Jul 24 2009, 11:08 PM:name=Scott Collins)-->QUOTE (Scott Collins @ Jul 24 2009, 11:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The view window that allows you to see the marks in the flywheel from above is located near the firewall at the end of the block. You basically have to lay on your stomach over a front fender, lightly, and get your eyes over it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll have to try this. I have a feeling that finding these marks is a lot like staring at one of those goofy paintings that look like a collection of random colors, and finally finding the crouching cheetah on the hillside hiding within the thing. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

Edit: Or the cheesehead bolts on the backside of the steering wheel that several people have told me in another thread are the first things I have to take off to remove my steering wheel. I know I'm going to feel REALLY foolish when I finally find these things...
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#23

Thank you Scott. I appreciate the tone of your response. I put the car away to wait for the Arnnworx tools to arrive which they did today. I can see immediately why that lock will not work. I still think it migfht be possible to dissect that one and adapt it to a 968 but if I can't I haven't lost anything else. What is the "Cricket" for? Is that for adjusting the balance belt? I do not see how to use that if that is the purpose. I will look for the flywheel access hole. I certainly would not have figured that out. Thank you again and I will let you all know how it goes when i get it done. Thanks again.
Dwight Anderson
94 Coupe
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#24

The timing mark on the flywheel is viewed from under the car looking from the front to the rear of the engine. There is a small window at the bottom of the engine flywhhel cover and 3 marks on the wheel. Line up with the center mark. The mark on the camshaft toothed pully should also be in position with the mark on the casing.
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#25

uh - the timing mark on the flywheel is viewed from the TOP of the engine, not the bottom- i tried taking a pic, but could not get the camera to focus down there - you can see it by leaning over from the driver side and peering down past the wires and stuff - it is a square hole
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#26

While the flywheel lock is great to have for changing the front end seals (ie seal behind the crank pulley), I do not consider it essential when changing the belts. You take belts off, you put belts on, you make sure everything is lined up.
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#27

    Flash, I did all the belts and front end reseal and the mark was down under behind the oilpan at the bellhousing.

There are 2 timing marks 180 degrees apart on the flywheel. The easy to see mark is down below. I should note that there is a 3/4" round plug in the hole that has to be removed if not missing.
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#28

no clue on that, i do know that mine is viewed from above
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#29

<!--quoteo(post=76280:date=Jul 28 2009, 12:28 PM:name=rustech)-->QUOTE (rustech @ Jul 28 2009, 12:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->While the flywheel lock is great to have for changing the front end seals (ie seal behind the crank pulley), I do not consider it essential when changing the belts. You take belts off, you put belts on, you make sure everything is lined up.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Rustech,
How is the lock not necessary? It seems that the crank pulley bolt is quite tight and I certainly could not break it loose with the car in gear and the E-brake on. I can't get an impact gun on it. I could possibly contrive a lock but I was wondering how you do it without a lock?
Thank you.
Dwight Anderson
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#30

<!--quoteo(post=76322:date=Jul 28 2009, 06:03 PM:name=danderson)-->QUOTE (danderson @ Jul 28 2009, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Rustech,
How is the lock not necessary? It seems that the crank pulley bolt is quite tight and I certainly could not break it loose with the car in gear and the E-brake on. I can't get an impact gun on it. I could possibly contrive a lock but I was wondering how you do it without a lock?
Thank you.
Dwight Anderson<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had the same question. Plus, while it's not essential to have the engine at #1 TDC when replacing the belts, as long as you don't end up accidentally moving the balance shafts, but I'd just feel more comfortable setting it at TDC, and locking the flywheel, before starting the belt removal process.
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#31

A few comments about the flywheel lock tool and timing the car....

To get the main crank bolt loose, releasing the alternator and power steering pullies, you need serious torque. Getting to a wheel bearing may be more, something like 300ft/lbs, but not many things on the car are in so tight. 150ft/lbs is what you need to torque the bolt when reassambling, so you need at least that to remove the bolt. Last time I did this I had to brace myself against the wall of my garage to generate enough force to break it loose. This is why, I believe, that the shop manual calls for the flywheel lock, and why the lock is so "stout". This, and because you want to prevent it from moving without the timing belt also moving the cams. Pistons moving while the cams and valves are not moving has caused some feelings to be hurt. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif[/img] Without the flywheel lock, you are pushing against the friction of the clutch disc on the flywheel.

As for the flywheel markings, and where you view them, it can be done from above, as has been mentioned. I'll try to get a picture tomorrow. The window is about the size of a postage stamp. From above, there is one visible mark that can be seen when it comes into view as you rotate the flywheel by hand cranking the car at the main crank bolt. When that line appears at the center of the view window, piston #1 is timed at TDC, or Top Dead Center. This flywheel position should match the position of the TDC marks on the exhaust cam gear and fixed mark behind it and can be seen by removing the distributor cap and rotor. It can also be done from below, as Ryan has said. I have done it this way when I was by myself, and cranked the engine by hand while checking the flywheel marks. You have to have the wrench on the bolt while looking through the hole in the bellhousing and pull that sucker slowly, while on your back. I think there are 3 marks when view from below, and TDC is the middle mark. (Ryan, if I have this wrong, and there are two instead of three marks, we'll connect sometime and I'll buy...heck, I'll buy either way!) When that mark is in the middle of the hole, the flywheel is in the correct position, and you pull yourself out from under the car and check the cam gear markings, which should be lined up, but not exactly perfect. Just a hair off. If the marking on the cam gear is 180 degrees off, at the opposite side, then you are at the wrong stroke. (I want to say exhaust stroke, but I need an expert to say this.) You then turn the flywheel until both marks line up.

What I have found is that the cam gear has a tendency to "settle", moving some teeth counterclockwise when the belt is removed and there is no tension keeping it in place. With the flywheel locked, all you need to to is get the new belt on with the cam gear marks lining up. I have always had to use a screwdriver and nudge the cam gear clockwise a bit to get it back to where it should be before slipping on the new belt.

We are all really good at error detection, so anyone reading this who sees a mistake, please get on it. Hope this helps!

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#32

I am finally certain that my engine is on TDC. I had the cam marks lined up but I could not find any mark through the peep hole at the top and that was after going back and forth many times with my sons looking as well in case I missed it. I was looking around underneath and found the little 3/4 inch plug that Ryan mentioned. I could not make sense of what I was seeing until I pulled that cover and then I saw the three marks mentioned above and then I was able to tell that the middle one was aligned with the hole in the cover. Once again I looked through the hole at the top and there is no mark on the top of my flywheel. Maybe my flywheel was changed at some point. I have no records for the car and it has 140,000 miles on it. But anyway I know it is aligned. I am waiting for a flywheel lock. I have marked everything with paint for the next time. Thank you to a number of you for your comments and help. I t made a difference.
Dwight Anderson
94 coupe
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#33

What brand belt is working for everyone? OEM is kinda expensive ($96) but I'm not sure if continental or gates is good too.
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#34

gates and dayco are the original - conti is what porsche stocks now - conti are higher in poly and consequently stretch more

i'm sticking with gates - i have for 30 years and never had a failure
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#35

And Gates is very reasonably priced, too. Somewhere in the $30's, iirc.
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#36

I'm about to do the belts on my car I just bought, looking through the records it has been 60,000 miles and 5 years since the previous owner had them replaced. Taking advice from Flash I'll order the belts from RS Barn. I've noticed an Oil drip off of the back of the cover plate below the engine, so I imagine the front seals will need attention at the same time.

Is there a list of all what I should replace while I've got the cover and belts off? Is there anything other than the seals?

I've never ordered parts for a Porsche, other than the belts, where would you suggest getting these parts?


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#37

How many total miles are on your car? I went ahead and replaced all the rollers, which I ordered from Paragon Products (www.paragon-products.com), but in hindsight, this was probably unnecessary, as the rollers that were in the car turned smoothly, but I wouldn't have known that until I had everything apart. So, if your car isn't a daily driver, you miht want to take the belts off, then inspect your rollers. If they look or feel the slightest bit worn, order a new set then. They're not terribly expensive, but again, if I had it to do over again, I would have inspected them before ordering a new set, as they seem to be pretty durable.

I would go ahead and replace the timing belt tensioner for sure, though. And if you don't have any record of the when the water pump was replaced, you might want to go ahead and replace it. I got a remanufactured one from Paragon, and it has worked great.

I did the front balance shaft seals, which are also very inexpensive, but it turns out they weren't actually leaking. If you're going to do yours, be aware that the two are different diameters, so make sure you have the correct seal going into the correct balance shaft. Good luck.
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#38

thanks for the advice (-: I have 100,000 miles on the car, so probably worth doing the rollers, I don't mind if they are still ok, doesn't hurt to do it while it's apart. Did you get the seals from Paragon as well?
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#39

Yes, I got everything from Paragon, except the timing belt. I got the Gates timing belt from a local O'Reilly.

Overall, I found the job not to be too bad. I ended up removing the fan assembly, which opens up a lot of room up front. I did struggle a bit getting the new belt on - I had to jam a couple of pieces of wood between the outside of the belt and the shroud to keep the belt in place as I was working it onto the rollers. I also drew a diagram of both belts to make sure I'd remember how they went back. Turns out I didn't really need it, but it gave me a little price of mind, as the job extended across a couple of weekends.

Oh, and I'd recommend ordering the flat 22 mm (?) wrench from Paragon, for setting the tension of the balance shaft belt. The flattness of the wrench makes it very handy for this somewhat frustrating task.

Oh, as far as removing the balance shaft rollers - there is a special tool available, but I was able to get by with a pair of 90 degree needle nose pliers to hold the roller in place while I loosened the nut that holds it on. This worked OK, but you might want to consider springing for the special tool. I don't remember how much it is, but I think it's something north of $40, so being the cheapskate that I am, I ended up borrowing a neighbor's needle nose pliers. These pliers are also useful for removing the circlip that holds the thermostat in place, if you decide to replace the thermostat as part of this job.
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#40

i made my own wrench by grinding down a wrench - cheaper than the one from paragon and i got it locally so no waiting

a standard bicycle spanner wrench does that job for about 6 bucks
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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