[ira968]

I have the std. suspension coupe with 6-speed, Koni inserts front, Bilstien rears, KLA strut bar, M030 bars. & rubber bushings, with 17" wheels and std. tire sizes. Don't want to put any (significant $) more into hardware but would like to find the "best handling" setup for what I have. About all I can adjust are the koni front shocks, the rear bar, alignment, tire pressures and rear ride height (I have read that the european spec ride heights are better). As all my other suspension components are original, maybe there are some other less expensive items that if replaced could make an improvement.



Just curious if someone with a similar car to mine could provide advice on settings they have found that work the best, particularly alignment? I understand this can be subjective and different from car to car -- just looking for an good starting point. Thanks!

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[mikew968]

track or street...Try maximizing the stock settings.





Mike

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[flash]

aaaaack! do not do that



shocks are to be set for whatever spring rate you have in there - setting shocks and struts on maximum, with springs not high enough rate, results in skiddish handling, and a lot of unwanted bump steer - the gas charge in the konis fakes you into thinking it is stiffer, but it really isn't



i put together an alignment spec thread (so titled) - this might help



the lower braces have been shown to help a lot



the bilsteins can be replaced with an adjustable fluid shock, if the ones you got are gas - this will settle down the rear end



as for ride height, you are stuck with it if you don't want to change the front springs



what tires and pressures are you running?

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[ira968]

[quote name='flash' post='40454' date='Aug 27 2007, 09:49 AM']aaaaack! do not do that



shocks are to be set for whatever spring rate you have in there - setting shocks and struts on maximum, with springs not high enough rate, results in skiddish handling, and a lot of unwanted bump steer - the gas charge in the konis fakes you into thinking it is stiffer, but it really isn't



i put together an alignment spec thread (so titled) - this might help



the lower braces have been shown to help a lot



the bilsteins can be replaced with an adjustable fluid shock, if the ones you got are gas - this will settle down the rear end



as for ride height, you are stuck with it if you don't want to change the front springs



what tires and pressures are you running?[/quote]

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[ira968]

[quote name='flash' post='40454' date='Aug 27 2007, 09:49 AM']aaaaack! do not do that



shocks are to be set for whatever spring rate you have in there - setting shocks and struts on maximum, with springs not high enough rate, results in skiddish handling, and a lot of unwanted bump steer - the gas charge in the konis fakes you into thinking it is stiffer, but it really isn't



i put together an alignment spec thread (so titled) - this might help



the lower braces have been shown to help a lot



the bilsteins can be replaced with an adjustable fluid shock, if the ones you got are gas - this will settle down the rear end



as for ride height, you are stuck with it if you don't want to change the front springs



what tires and pressures are you running?[/quote]



I have the konis set half way and the rear bar on the firmest setting. Tires are 235/45-17 front and 255/40-17 rear potenza 02s. Wheels are Borbet aftermarket 55/47 et a little wider than stock. My front is not adjustable but the rear is about 3/4 of an inch higher -- can't the rear be lowered to even the ride height and get a better balance? It's the alignment I was most interested about and read your thread which is helpful. Question: is the ride height something that should be done and if so should it be done prior to the alignment? If I do the lower chassis brace when is the best time to install and are new castor blocks something to consider?

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[flash]

it's odd that your fornt end is lower than the rear - are you sure you have original springs?



if it is stock, you should be able to lower the rear by about the amount it sits high now - it would be done as a part of the alignment - in addition to haveing a recently calibrated laser machine that works in tenths of a degree, make sure that the shop you take it to for alignment has the thin 24mm wrench, as well as the P221 tool - both are needed for rear alignment



as i said in the thread, have the alignment done, with about 1/2 tank of gas, and weighted as you drive it (junk you carry, and your weight in the driver seat, etc)



if you do a lower brace, inspect the castor blocks carefully - the brey krause requires you remove them to install it - mine does not - in either event, this would be the time to do them, as you have to adjust them in any alignment - no point in doing it twice

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[ira968]

[quote name='flash' post='40473' date='Aug 27 2007, 12:23 PM']it's odd that your fornt end is lower than the rear - are you sure you have original springs?



if it is stock, you should be able to lower the rear by about the amount it sits high now - it would be done as a part of the alignment - in addition to haveing a recently calibrated laser machine that works in tenths of a degree, make sure that the shop you take it to for alignment has the thin 24mm wrench, as well as the P221 tool - both are needed for rear alignment



as i said in the thread, have the alignment done, with about 1/2 tank of gas, and weighted as you drive it (junk you carry, and your weight in the driver seat, etc)



if you do a lower brace, inspect the castor blocks carefully - the brey krause requires you remove them to install it - mine does not - in either event, this would be the time to do them, as you have to adjust them in any alignment - no point in doing it twice[/quote]



Thanks. I was under the assumption that the front stock height was lower than he rear. At the center of the wheel arches I get 26.25" in front and 27" in back. When I measure at the factory bumper points I am within tolerance in front and roughly 3/4" high in the rear. Looks like lowering the rear is a must before anything else.

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[flash]

hmmm - front is correct for stock, taking into account the age, but the rear is definitely high



i'm wondering if the bilsteins are pushing it - are they any coils on them?

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[ira968]

[quote name='flash' post='40481' date='Aug 27 2007, 01:04 PM']hmmm - front is correct for stock, taking into account the age, but the rear is definitely high



i'm wondering if the bilsteins are pushing it - are they any coils on them?[/quote]



Just std. bilstein B36-2052. These are gas charged, fluid filled shocks with no springs. Well, regardless of what's pushing the rear end up it appears the car would benefit from some lowering.

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[flash]

yes - was just wondering if there was something else at play here



you should be able to lower it to level - any competent performance alignment shop will have the tools, but best to ask first - i have run into quite a few that claim to be performance shops, that didn't have the correct tools, and therefore could not set the rear ride height



just a note to see if they did it right (because many shops don't want to bother with adding the driver weight) at rest, with you out of the car, the driver side should sit about 1/8" higher than the passenger side



try to get them to do it with the driver weight in the car though - it affects camber and toe as much as ride height

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[sawood12]

I've had my 944 set up with a slightly nose down attitude when I had my KW's installed. Apparenlty the 944 (so then the 968) likes that for stability under braking and turn in. My car is my daily runner and track day toy. I looked at all sorts of different combinations before deciding to splash out on the KW's and i'm glad I did. IMHO the original stuff - even the M030, is way out of date now and simply too soft. The KW has turned my car into a completely different animal. It is much much stiffer without compromising ride quality too much and it's composure and control under all conditions is far far superior to any original equipment offering. Got my first track session with the new setup at the end of the month so looking forward to seeing what it's like on track.



Unfortunately the answer is that you are unlikely to make huge improvements to your current setup unless you invest a few $ and ditch the OEM stuff. Before installing the KW I replaced my shocks with new OEM ones and it made little difference which is what tipped me towards aftermarket stuff. OEM stuff is fine for street and cruising around but is out of it's depth on track. It all boils down to what you are wanting to achieve.



There is a chap inthe UK who ugraded his suspension at the same time as mine. He went the Koni adjustable insert route with stiffer springs. In the end he didn't save a huge amount over what I spent on my KW's (although I had some other work done at the same time while I was in there which bumped up the cost even more) and his car still wallows and rolls on track - almost as much as a car on stock suspension.

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[Tom in Austin]

Can't remember reading this before ... how high should be rear end be? Is measuring from the highest point of the wheel arch down to the ground a good way to check ride height?

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[flash]

if you have the oem size tires (oem 16s and 17s have the same O.D. of 25", so it does not matter), basically the measurement from the ground to the top of the fender arch should be about 26.5" stock for a standard car (20mm lower for an M030) - while not the truly accurate way to measure ride height, it will work for street application just fine



spring age, fender installation, tire wear, variance in tire model specs, and such will cause this to be slightly different, but that is your "nominal" dimension



it is not uncommon for these cars to be at about 26" at this age



when the car is empty, there should be about 1/8" - 1/4" difference between driver side and passenger side (driver side obviously being higher) - when setting ride height, do so with the driver weight in the car, and about 1/2 tank of gas, and loaded as it will be driven

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[pazzer]

Just to add from my experience, if you have had any panel replaced,be careful when measuring, for example my car has had a rear quarter in the past, so meausuring from the centre of this panel through the centre of the wheel gave different readings from side to side, resulting in having to set the spring height platforms differently from side to side on my bilstein escort cups, now under heavy braking the car is very skittish at the rear and pulls to the left under extreme braking, we have bleed the system twice, but no air has come out, all pistons are moving, so i presume it is someting to do with the suspension at the rear, any ideas anyone.... or maybe it is that i have junked a load of weight off the rear end using the torsion delete kit and the rs barn system, rears are running 800lb springs 7 inch in length, front 750lb 8 inch in length, eric what are you thoughts on this set up as mine is very near to you specs of the race car you run, is your rear end stable under heavy braking,,,,,,, wait for the rude comments to come in... <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/unsure.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> regards chris.

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[flash]

yup - that's why i said "fender installation" above - it can affect the measurements



as for why your car is doing what it is doing, it sounds like you have a couple of things going on



do you have corner weight readings on it? - i dumped most of my weight loss in the rear too, and i had to make changes accordingly to ride height, spring rate, camber, and tire pressure



with no torsions, the rear rate is awfully light compared to the front - the math crunches your rear rate to about half of the front rate - this does not take into account any weight loss, which if it is rear biased could mitigate a bit of that - again, corner weights would help determine the correct spring rate - that being said, unbalanced like this can cause insufficient weight transfer, and make things very skiddish - it won't make for the pulling under braking though



it still sounds like you have a caliper hanging up a bit - just because the pistons move does not mean they move evenly and smoothly

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[Cloud9...68]

I don't know, guys... You all sound like you really know what you're talking about as far as suspension set-up, but I had a real eye-popping experience at my last track outing. My car, as you can see from my signature, has a moderate amount suspension mods, yet it still sways like a pool raft in the middle of a water ski exhibition, so it's far from a true track set-up. I mentioned this in another post, but I had a professional race driver with 25 years experience drive my car, and the way he was flying around the track with an almost eery degree of absolute smoothness and composure left me floored. I have never experienced such, well, greatness, to put it succicntly. And when he turned the car back to be, he was extremely complementary about what a great car my 968 is, and this was about 30 minutes after he stepped out of a Ferrari Enzo.



What I'm getting at is, if your goal is to be able to drive you car faster, wouldn't more seat time at the track, preferably with some competent instruction in the passenger seat, be a far better investment that tinkering with the suspension, especially considering how expensive suspension mods are? I don't know about the rest of you, but after 5 DE weekends, I feel like I'm another good 10 events away from the point where improving the handling characteristics of my car would benefit me more than continuing to hone my technique, and watching how fast my car with its current set-up can go in the hands of someone who really knows what they're doing has only reinforced this belief. I know this is not a new topic, but I just wanted to share my recent experience.

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[pazzer]

Your dead right cloud, thats my next plan, in the new tear i'm going to have a FIA GT3 porsche rsr professional race driver for the day, costs around £500, but i'm sure i willl benefit from his tuition, and guess what he's only 21 years old, sean edwards the guy, he has a website seanedwards.eu, bloody good for his age, i say. pazzer

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[Eric_K]

Ha Pazzer, didn't you see the video of the last time I used the brakes? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ohmy.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> Well, it was behaving well up until that point. I don't think it is your spring rates. I would check the alignment, possible play in a bushing, sticking caliper, brake bias. Do you have a LSD? It could be a lot of things.

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[pazzer]

[quote name='Eric_K' post='42303' date='Oct 12 2007, 11:42 PM']Ha Pazzer, didn't you see the video of the last time I used the brakes? <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ohmy.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> Well, it was behaving well up until that point. I don't think it is your spring rates. I would check the alignment, possible play in a bushing, sticking caliper, brake bias. Do you have a LSD? It could be a lot of things.[/quote]



yeah i have a LSD Eric, must be a caliper by the looks of it.

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='pazzer' post='42302' date='Oct 13 2007, 12:49 AM']Your dead right cloud, thats my next plan, in the new tear i'm going to have a FIA GT3 porsche rsr professional race driver for the day, costs around £500, but i'm sure i willl benefit from his tuition, and guess what he's only 21 years old, sean edwards the guy, he has a website seanedwards.eu, bloody good for his age, i say. pazzer[/quote]



That sounds like a great deal. A whole day with a professional driver, provided he has good teaching skills, will do more for your lap times that thousands of dollars (or pounds, in your case) worth of mods, imho. If you've never ridden with a professional before, prepare to be astounded by what they can do. The guy I rode with (his name is Bill Dollohite) seared into my brain forever the adage that smooth truly is fast.

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