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General Clutch questions...
#21

[quote name='flash' post='29173' date='Dec 19 2006, 07:19 AM']wow - interesting that both spec and fidanza say that it wasn't safe, which is why they didn't and wouldn't do it



now if only we could find a disk



i actually had some spring center clutches here to try to make that work - unfortunately, i could not find one that would work with both our pressure plate and input shaft - either the throwout bearing got in the way, or the shoulder on the clutch disk was too short



i would have to step outside porsche for a disk, and just gave up at that point[/quote]



Bob, the thickest part of the Fidanza flywheel is the area around the hub where the bolt holes are. It had to be made this thick to maintain the spacing as dictated by the DMF, which is easily twice as thick as any conventional flywheel. Strength is not an issue; the positioning has to be maintained, so the flywheel is very thick at the hub to position the assembly in the stock location for the flywheel sensor, t/o fork, and central tube drive.



Take a look at my previous post with the backside pic of the Fidanza if you don't remember exactly what it looks like and how thick it is. My guy said the bolts were the weak point because of their length. He said that the hub could take a pretty deep cut, much more than the slightly less than 1/4” required.



For a disc, any 951 disc will work and I was going to use a turbo cup clutch or a 911 turbo sport disc that I’ve used before in high HP 944 turbo’s.



I really should buy another flywheel, have the machine work completed and prototype this for the group. I’m certain it will work and be the best of both worlds.



Incidentally, Porsche Motorsports used to sell a complete 968 sport clutch package for around $2200 back in the day. It used a steel one piece flywheel with a solid hub 996 turbo disc, but I think would accommodate a spring center clutch disc. I didn’t own my car when it was available or I would have bought it. .
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#22

yeah - i tend to agree - i hadn't crunched the nubmers on the material and stress loads, but my gut said it woudl be fine



being naturally lazy, rather than going through my old engineering books, relearning how to figure it out, and then doing hte math, i just caled fidanza and spec - it was only the conversations with them that i used to determine that it couldn't be done



i'm glad to hear that somebody has done the math - i would love to see this happen



as for the spring center disk, we have looked at all the 240mm 23 spine disks porsche has available that we could think of that had spring centers - so far, none of them fit both conditions - if one cleared the heads of the bolts, the little sleeve was on the wrong side - if the sleeve was on the right side, it was too short - very disappointing



certainly open to suggestions here - this is really the only thing holding me up from putting one in, and frankly the only thing stopping the new project from having a spring center disk
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



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#23

orphanowner and flash - if either of you guys come up with a "heavier but solid" flywheel I'll volunteer to be the guinea pig! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
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#24

Heh yeah, I might join in as well <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
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#25

[quote name='sasilverbullet' post='29182' date='Dec 19 2006, 09:27 AM']orphanowner and flash - if either of you guys come up with a "heavier but solid" flywheel I'll volunteer to be the guinea pig! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />[/quote]





It won't be heavier. It will be a modified Fidanza with a spring center Sachs clutch and a couple of disc and PP options.
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#26

orphanowner - It's soooo hard to pay attention to your posts! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



So the same Fidanza, just with a spring center clutch disc. So the thinking is that spring center will help to bring back some of the driveability? You think that will get rid of the 2200 rpm rattle?
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#27

it would not improve driveability - the only thing it might resolve is some of the rattle - the educated guess is about half - the springs would absorb about 30 ft/lb of the torque induced rattle - this would only happen on decel though - on acceleration, the rattle would be unaffected, as youare applying more torque than could be absorbed
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#28

This is the most exciting thread I've read in months (I really need to get out more <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> ). Given the age of our cars, questionable durability of the DMF, and their excessive weight, a lightwieght SMF flywheel that can accept a spring centered disk would quickly become the best-selling replacement part in the (admittedly minuscule) 968 universe. My 92 isn't giving any clutch-related symptoms, but I know it's only a matter of time, expecially with my new-found interest in tracking the car (DEs only). I'll be first in line for one of these at the first hint, real or imagined, of clutch trouble. Any estimates as to when something like this might become available? Thanks.
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#29

Confirming that the rattle is not noticeable or annoying on acceleration. You really only hear it with power-off coasting or decelerating at the car's 'rattle' harmonic, and it's worst while in decel.



Michael
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#30

The rattle is really only a problem on decel. I won't go into detail about the reasons why this occurs, but it's not particular to 968. My 951 racecar with a solid hub clutch made the same rattle. My E46 M3 without the DMF was so loud I couldn't live with the NVH and had to pull it out. There is a reason street cars are sold with spring clutch hubs or DMF’s.



Anyway, the spring center disc with the Fidanza will resolve the noise issue. The only other issue, which is not an issue for me, is the lighter flywheel. Some people have to get used to it when starting out (I did) but once you get used to it, it's not a problem. I had a street 951 with a light flywheel and drove it daily. Stop and go traffic sucked, but it always sucked in that car. My 968 is not a daily driver and as I've said, the lightweight flywheel is one of the best mods I've done.
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#31

My car has 160,000 miles and it still has the original DMF and clutch...



There's been a lot of talk about the DMF's only lasting about 60,000 miles...



I think if you JUST drive on the street and don't drive it real hard they will last a while...



my .02 cents...
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#32

perhaps i'm just more sensitive to the difference - it's been the same in all 3 cars i've driven with these flywheels - i can absolutely feel it both on accel and coasting - but then i can tell when the flywheel hasn't been balanced too - it is not just decel, although that is certainly 10 times worse - there is a very brief "buzz" on accel (VERY brief) - take it to the vibration point though in a parking lot and hold it there - it will rattle a lot - this is the one that bugs me the most - rather embarrassing - get the transaxle really hot - it will even rattle at idle - that one sounds like a nut banging around in a box



i still love it, but the noise bugs the heck out of me



lol - uh - mike - if you are just driving it on the street, and not driving it hard, you should be driving a toyota
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#33

[quote name='flash' post='29219' date='Dec 20 2006, 07:17 AM']perhaps i'm just more sensitive to the difference - it's been the same in all 3 cars i've driven with these flywheels - i can absolutely feel it both on accel and coasting - but then i can tell when the flywheel hasn't been balanced too - it is not just decel, although that is certainly 10 times worse - there is a very brief "buzz" on accel (VERY brief) - take it to the vibration point though in a parking lot and hold it there - it will rattle a lot - this is the one that bugs me the most - rather embarrassing - get the transaxle really hot - it will even rattle at idle - that one sounds like a nut banging around in a box



i still love it, but the noise bugs the heck out of me



lol - uh - mike - if you are just driving it on the street, and not driving it hard, you should be driving a toyota[/quote]



Bob is correct; there is a brief buzz when you go from trailing throttle or coasting throttle to accelerating throttle. This is totally livable for me, it lasts a second or so. The spring hub clutch will eliminate that too.



Flash was or still is an audio engineer, he has trained ears and can tell you if a quarter lands head or tails by the sound it makes when it lands! I can tune out everything but the trailing throttle rattle at 2200 RPM’S.





Mike:



My DMF failed for the original owner of my car at 26,000. No track time, normal driving. (I did the replacement and should have talked him into the Porsche Motorsports clutch package back then). At 160K, you are either on the second flywheel or driving with a failed DMF. Lots of these were replaced under warranty when the cars were almost new.



I checked with a wholesaler I buy Porsche parts from that services independent shops on the west coast. They have sold 157 968 DMF YTD. They don't have any in stock right now. Maybe I SHOULD get this figured out...looks like an opportunity!
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#34

I'm interested as well. Hope someone gets it all mapped out.
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#35

lol - yeah - that's right, and very fair - i admit that i am overly sensitive to noises - some i can live with - some just drive me nuts



the accel buz i can live with - the decel i could get used to - the one that bugs me the most, as i said, is the one where you are cruising through the parking lot at your local grocery store, and everyone starts staring at you as you approach thinking "wow - what a cool car" and then as you go by them they change to "wow - what a bucket of bolts" in response to hearing that dreaded rattle
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#36

lol, never thought of it quite like that <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> Ok, we need those springs and weights <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
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#37

Flash. Absolutely correct <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Mine was the factory sport clutch. By the time we tracked it to the flywheel, we had visited the gearbox and the torque tube. Both needed looking at anyway <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Michael
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#38

lol - me too - changed every bearing in the gearbox - TWICE! - rebuilt the torque tube too - rebalanced the flywheel



then finally got ahold of a couple of racers and they gave me the story



oh well
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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