[ds968]

I have not seen this annual adjustment in the service booklet either , but Bob ( flash ) indicated it is in the owner's manual. Regardless, omission of that step should still not make a belt SPLIT, that reflects a substandard or defective belt , IMO and I'd think a good case for legal recourse can be made, but hoping an attorney on this forum can chime in on this with an opinion. Absent that, if I were you I see nothing to lose by filing a small claims court action against Porsche for your damage , most small claims court jurisdictions max. alowanble amounts vary, but the typical max is in the is $5k to 7k category. Costs about $ 50 to file a claim, you don't need ( but can have ) and attorney..so why not ?!

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[tamathumper]

We're still just talking about the balance shaft belt, and no real damage, right?

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[gbarrier]

You know, sometimes Murphy just gets in there.



Perhaps the belt had laid on the sellers shelf for some time, and perhaps it was not of the quality of some others that the manufacturer made that day or just perhaps the tension wasn't just right when installed. Believe any of that you care to but sometimes all the holes in several layers of the swiss cheese all line up and it happens.



I've owned two 944s and two 968. My first 968 I drove nearly 30K a year to work. I've always been happy with the less expensive belts (autozone's brand or similar). Sometimes I drag out the Kirkit tool but pretty much rely on the twist method any more.



I've personally never been one to go looking for legal action against a manufacturer for a car they built nearly 20 years ago. Of course I don't care much for Ambulance chasers either. That kind of a thing nearly ruined the aviation industry in this country some 30 years ago.



Off the soap box now. You all go check your belt. Yep, guess I should too. Perhaps tomorrow.

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[flash]

what makes a belt fail or split is a stress beyond its current ability to retain elasticity. that is due to polymer cross-linking. this happens due to both time and use, either of which individually being able to cause it. since there is not much tension on that particular belt, it only leaves hardening, and since there was only 25k miles on it, that only leaves age.



any claim would be invalid. the manual says to adjust it. i didn't do it as often as i should have. there is also way too much evidence out there regarding belt life and the nature of rubber. on top of that i have always preached about the 3 year limit. i would be the last one that would be able to sue for this. besides, it's way too late for that.



do what you want dan. you already experience the joy of not following the recommended process. if you choose to ignore that, then that is your business. however, we cannot recommend that to the membership, as it is contrary to all known science, our own experience, and the manufacturers recommendations. to do so would be to put the liability on us.

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[ds968]

[quote name='tamathumper' timestamp='1343299745' post='130018']We're still just talking about the balance shaft belt, and no real damage, right?[/quote]



I misread Brian's post and for some reason was under the mistaken impression all this time that after the belt snapped, it took out the timing belt with it , followed by the inevitable top end damage...not sure how or why that was in my head, but I just now looked at the post , paying attention this time, lol..and realized how silly the claim suggestion must have sounded. I was referring of course to a

$ 5,000 + damage caused by a 1 year old belt .



Bob , I never suggested or implied to any other members not to follow recommended procedures ( as prescribed by Porsche ) just because I tend to neglect some conventional wisdom practices and have had no problems , other than two isolated incidents. Btw, where exactly in the manual does it talk about the annual adjustment, I can't find it anywhere..I know it's the, recall seeing it before, just looked yesterday and could not locate it.

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[flash]

it's in the maintenance book on page 6. in addition to the every 15000 miles (which is what porsche expects you to drive every year, so by default an annual item) it also wants you to check it at 2000-2400 miles after replacing it. it is not an "either/or" thing, but rather both.



for the record, the reason mine split was because it got so loose that it jumped over the edge of a retaining washer, which then split the belt. because this belt is loose to begin with, it does not take much to make it loose enough to jump. because i rev my engine high a lot, it makes it even easier. this is why they specify an annual adjustment.

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[ds968]

Got it thanks, so it's default thing, similar to , but in reverse, the timing belt where only mileage is mentioned ( 60k ) so, in essence the equivalent of 4 years whichever comes first.. But we all know the dangers of not replacing it much earlier than the prescribed 60k miles..!!



On gbarrier's post, yes true that you can't expect Porsche to be liable for everything that goes wrong in a 20 year old car, but I strongly believe if you sell a new part, whether it's a timing belt which has the potential to cause massive engine damage, or if you sell breaks, etc and other parts which can compromise safety for example, you need to take responsibility and be held accountable for what you sell . Thus, as a mfg, or as a dealer you need to make sure it's not an item that sits on a shelf for 10 years which can disintegrate, or crumble , or snap a year later, or has the propensity to fail way, way, prematurely vs. its reasonably expected performance lifecycle.

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[flash]

i don't disagree. however, the problem here is complicated.



1. the design was not really up to the task to begin with, and is not up to what we are now often subjecting the cars to.

2. the maintenance schedule was not as clear as it could have been, and certainly is not followed like it should be.

3. the cars have been out there for 20 years. the opportunity for real cure by the manufacturer is long gone.

4. the liability for a part is limited to the replacement of that part. collateral damage is not generally allowed. there are exceptions, but it takes something significant to go there (injury, death, etc), and you have to have a lot of proof.



this is no different than any other manufacturer or any other car. we all can cite examples of cars which have known weaknesses, regardless of how many times you replace something. we even hear about recalls on new cars often. no amount of testing is going to catch everything. we also continue to buy things, knowing that they fail.



it is what it is. left alone and serviced properly, these cars went for over a decade without issue. now that people are no longer servicing them at the dealerships, and following manufacturer procedure and protocol, we see a lot more failures. the problem is that now even the dealer doesn't know what to do. the shops and mechanics left only know what they do from their own experiences. we are stuck in the middle of the learning curve. i went through this with the british stuff 25 years ago. the dealerships had lost the knowledge base, and the independents had not yet ramped up.



that leaves us with doing what we can. buy they best belt you can. have it installed correctly (the diagram in the manual is unclear and many improperly tension the belt). tension the belt annually. change it at 3 years or 45k miles, whichever comes first.



that's the best we can do.

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[tamathumper]

+1 on the tension it properly and having to ensure it's done yourself - even the dealer's "top man" told me to leave a 1mm gap between the balance belt idler and the belt, instead of a 1mm deflection, and he referenced the unclear diagram in the manual as he said it.



In addition to 20 years having gone by, we have the added disadvantage of being a rare car, within a rare brand. The dealers never see a 968, so their hands-on experience is nil.

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[Cloud9...68]

I started a discussion about the P9201 belt tensioning tool on another thread, and I'd like to respect Flash's wishes to keep that thread on its intended topic, so I'd like to continue the discussion of tensioning tools here. I disagree with Flash about a tensioner gauge being superfluous after the initial tensioning, and here's why. The frequency for re-setting the belt tension will vary depending on the quality of the particular belt, how the car is driven, weather conditions, etc. Given the criticality of the BS belt tension, I wouldn't trust the tensioning interval to a fixed number of miles or months, or to certainly my ability to tell by feel if the belt has loosened too much, as the change in tension can be very subtle.



To me, the best approach is to tighten the belt with a reliable gauge after initial install, and then check the tightness with the same gauge at some regular interval. When it loosens by some reasonable amount (not sure what that is offhand - maybe 10% of the original reading?), tension it back to the original reading. This takes the guesswork out of how frequently to do the tensioning. Maybe that's being overly anal, but after have used a P9201 gauge, I've become a believer that it's an invaluable tool it keeping your balance shaft belt at the correct tension.

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[flash]

i don't disagree about the need to check the tension frequently and adjust accordingly. i only disagree that a tool is required.



as an example, i can tell, within 3-4lbs, what torque i am applying with my tools, up to about 40 ft/lbs. after that, i need a torque wrench. i can similarly tell what the tension on the belt is by touch. i presume that others can do the same thing.



this is not at all abnormal either. your digits are a lot more able to tell these things than you might think. you wouldn't think your feet were particularly dextrous, but yet you manage to maintain a speed in your car within less than 1 mile per hour without any difficulty whatsoever.



all it takes is practice, and initially a tool so you can "calibrate" your fingers



the tension is not all that critical either. it needs to be tight enough so that it does not jump off the pulley, yet loose enough to not make an undue amount of noise. it's actually a pretty wide margin. it is certainly not that difficult to do.

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[Cloud9...68]

So do you think the average person can discern when it has loosened enough to require re-tightening? The reason I have my doubts is my oft-repeated (apologies in advance for doing it again) experience I had a few years ago where I replaced by BS belt (several teeth had sheared off - dodged a bullet there), and adjusted it a little too tight, as it whined upon start-up, and quieted down after about ten minutes of driving. Knowing that the belt would loosen over time, I expected the whine to go away, but it never did, even though I gave it several thousand miles, so I re-tensioned it, a bit looser next time. I didn't pay much attention to how loose it felt compared to how it felt when I first tensioned it. But my concern is that if the loosening that surely occurred after a couple thousand miles of driving (in the warm central Texas climate) didn't cause enough of a change to impact the sound it was making, I'm not confident in my ability to discern by feel the degree of loosening that likely occurred.



Or, maybe it didn't loosen at all for some reason. In that case (other than the noise it was making in my particular case), re-tightening this belt was a waste of time. I don't know, maybe it's just the engineer in me that like to use the actual reading on the gauge to determine how much to tighten. Though I understand it's a lot of money to pay for that luxury.

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[flash]

i get that. i can only tell you that in 30 years of wrenching, once i have "felt" what the belt is supposed to be like, i have never needed a tool again to get it right. i can't argue that having the tool, and using it, would give you peace of mind. but, i'm willing to bet, that with very little "learning" you could do it by feel.



there are a lot of belt tension measuring tools out there though. google away and you'll find a few very quickly.

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[JWahlsten]

I have the "tool" and use it, but I can pretty much tell at this point when I have the belts right too. Having had 5 944/968 variants since 1997 and wrenching on them may have something to do with this.



I'm sticking with Gates belts and changing them every other year when tracking in order to avoid a high RPM mishap. I'll do them every three when using the car solely on the street which I've done the last two years.



Thanks to the Brian for bringing this back to the forefront...

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='JWahlsten' timestamp='1343494591' post='130167']

I have the "tool" and use it, but I can pretty much tell at this point when I have the belts right too. Having had 5 944/968 variants since 1997 and wrenching on them may have something to do with this.



I'm sticking with Gates belts and changing them every other year when tracking in order to avoid a high RPM mishap. I'll do them every three when using the car solely on the street which I've done the last two years.



Thanks to the Brian for bringing this back to the forefront...

[/quote]

Do you re-tighten the belt between your change intervals? This is the part I'm struggling with, because while I agree that with a little practice, and maybe having the experience of using the tool at least one, the average person can set the initial tension after a belt change, I'm much less confident in anyone's ability to be able to determine when the belt has loosened enough to warrant re-tensioning. With the gauge, it's a no-brainer. I guess this doesn't mean you absolutely have to have the P9201, but it seems to me that some sort of gauge is needed to be able to determine if it has loosened enough to require re-tightening.

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[flash]

the test to see would be the same as procedure for tensioning it. if your fingers are "trained" then you're good to go. if you can't develop that touch, then you would need a tool.



i can certainly recognize the inability to discern pressure though. my wife absolutely could not figure out how to meter her left foot enough to drive the 12lb flywheel. i had absolutely no problem.



if you are in doubt, use a tool. as i said though, there are a LOT of tools out there for this, with a wide range of prices. they are nothing more than a torque wrench.



you could easily make one out of a large socket. just cut a pathway through the socket for the belt and then weld on little guide rails. measure the tension on the correct tool that you borrowed from somebody, so you have the baseline. then, using your new tool, measure the torque required to deflect the belt on your needle type (not click type) torque wrench. at that point you have your own tool for the cost of a socket and a couple of tack welds.

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[Cloud9...68]

Makes sense. As you say, the ideal situation would be to have a P9201 to set the initial tension and to calibrate to whatever tool you choose to use or make. After that, it becomes easy to monitor the change in tension over time.



Personally, I don't trust my ability to discern pressure very much. I use a torque wrench on every bolt I can fit one on, even the most insignificant ones used to attach brackets and such.

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[flash]

lol - i use one on anything i think is at all critical, or anything i might break.

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[JWahlsten]

Sorry, been away for a bit.



I do use the gauge to check whether the the belt has loosened enough to tension. However, I will check it by the old finger gauge first... It's not quite as accurate, but pretty darn close. I just did my retensioning this morning to get the car ready for a track event on the 22nd...

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[Cloud9...68]

Joel,



Do you use the P9201, or a different gauge?

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