[mrayner]

I was exiting the highway and was coming to a stop at an intersection. I pushed in the clutch pedal and it hit the floor and stays there. I knew something was up and was going to take it in to my mechanic. For the past few days I noticed the clutch was failing to disengage immediately taking what seemed like up to a second to come out of gear. Not sure if this is a typical symptom of a clutch about to die. It failed very quickly, probably 20 miles of driving from initial symptom to total fail.

I towed the car to my local shop hear in Vancouver and left it overnight for them to discover in the morning. Sure enough I need a new clutch. The clutch is original AFAIK, w/ 139,000 km (~86,000 miles).

They quoted two prices based on if the flywheel needed to be replaced. They indicated that they may be able to machine the flywheel and save me some $. Anyone done this? They figured 50% chance it was salvageable (they had not looked yet). These seemed a bit off to me as I figured if it is not to spec then replacement is they way to go. Either way they said it was a six hour job on a 968 (much more involved on a 944).

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[Scott Collins]

The last and only time my car did that same thing was when my original clutch hose ruptured as I tried to pull away at a light. Maybe around 65K miles on the clock at the time. After I called some local friends with 968's, I got the advice I needed. I put started it in 1st gear and limped home, but I was just 1/4 mile from my house, on back roads. I could see the brake fluid leaking out of the gash in the hose, so it wasn't hard to get a diagnosis. I installed a new RS Barn braided steel line, bled the system with the Motive Power Bleeder, and that was it.

I suggest that before you go further, call Pete at RS Barn. Since you are talking about well over $2,000, with parts being about $1,200 if you buy new, it seems wise to get a 2nd opinion. I know that Pete can't look at the car, but he and Max know quite a bit.

Sorry that happened. Best of luck.

-Scott

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[flash]

what you are experiencing is almost never the clutch, and almost always the hydraulics

the typical culprit is the high pressure line

when you replace the hugh pressure line, be sure to replace the slave cylinder and master cylinder at the same time - otherwise you will likely be in there again very soon after

if they insist on replacing the clutch, make sure you negotiate a deal whereby the clutch job is free if they diagnosed it incorrectly

a 968 clutch job is 4 hours by the book, and generally only takes 3

as for machining the dual mass flywheel, i know it can be done, but good luck finding a machine shop that is willing to do it - it's not like a regular flywheel

the bottom line is that it does not sound to me like this shop knows much about the 968

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[Scott Collins]

Flash,

That is what I was about to say, in addition to what I already said.... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]

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[Langley968]

My hydraulic clutch hose burst recently and the symptoms that Mike is describing sounds just like my car.
I took the advice given here, and also had the "master" and "slave" cylinders replaced when the RS Barn stainless steel hose was installed. I was quoted 2.5 hours of labour to get the job done and even though the mechanic took 5 hours to get it done, I was not charged more than I was originally quoted.
Everything is great now. I was able to go on a 150 mile cruise with the wife yesterday, which included a section of the "Sea to Sky Highway". That is a great stretch of asphalt! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif[/img]

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[mrayner]

Strange thing is that my clutch hydraulics failed (hose) back in November and was replaced by the same shop. I did not change slave or master cylinder at this time. This is a porsche shop that services a few 968s and several 944s so I would be surprised if it is mis-diagnosed ... but definitely doubting things after the responses here. I will call them tomorrow and challenge them on the diagnoses and go over the symptoms with them again...which seems to point to hydraulic failure. Thanks for the tip on replacing the slave & master cylinder with the hydraulic line.

Thanks for the input on this.

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[flash]

then i will be willing to bet it is the slave or master that has failed - ALWAYS change them all at the same time - failure to do so only leads to failure of the next weak link

again i point to the shop not sounding like they really know what they are doing - discussions about this very issue are on a number of websites, all resulting in the same conclusions

unfortunately this is the "normal" situation - there are not many shops out there that really know these cars and the problems they have - so, i'm not singling them out, but rather indicating that unless they are a specialist in front engine porsches, they likely don't know about the stuff many of us do

i would seriously put them in a position of supporting their diagnosis by putting their money where their mouth is if they insist that it is the clutch - if they guess wrong, they pay for it - the last thing you want to do is pay for a $1000+ clutch job when what you really need is a $400 hydraulic job

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[DaveN]

It doesn't sound like where I got my car serviced as they know the 968 quite well. Check out SCAN auto in N.Van for a second opinion maybe?

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[jfrahm]

The most common cause for this is actually low brake fluid. I assume that has been checked?

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[mrayner]

All fluids are fine. It was not the hydraulics. The internal mechanism for the clutch release had been ground away not allowing the plates to separate when pulling on the release fork...resulting in the delayed action...and finally total fail. In the picture below you can see a loose/shredded metal ring (there were a few of them) that were holding the clutch release mechanism in place. You can also see the wear on the flywheel, which is almost ground down to the bolts. This was the original clutch with 140,000km (~87k Miles).

I now have a new clutch and fly feel. Hugh difference, clutch is very smooth. Clutch is much more sensitive and responsive than it has ever been in the 5 years I have had it.

Pictures attached.

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[flash]

i'm not seeing what you are talking about - that disk looks pretty normal for that mileage

there is only one ring that holds the release bearing in place - there are a couple of shims behind it though

i am wondering if the ring just popped out - it happens, though usually right after a clutch install where the installer didn't quite get it seated

out of curiosity, did they also replace any of your hydraulics?

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[mrayner]

Maybe the pictures do not capture it...but there was shredded metal rings all over the place. You can only see one hanging on there...there were several of them most fallen off and are not in the picture. I am by no means an expert here, so certainly putting faith in the mechanic. I do not think this was unnecessary work, and he went over it with me at length at the shop, and he guaranteed the work. You think otherwise?

For the hydraulics they did not replace anything. They checked them out and did not feel it was necessary. They would do it if I asked, and I decided to hold off, perhaps get a second opinion. The workshop manual does not call for it? Census on this board seems to be that it should be done for preventative maintenance even if hydraulics are in good working order? There are a few 968ers who use this porsche shop and I have never heard anyone say they did not know the car or what they were doing....but certainly there are not a lot of 968s in greater vancouver area, probably no more than a dozen.

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[mrayner]

A couple more pictures FYI. Not showing the failure here, rather the wear.

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[flash]

i'm not suggesting that they did anything wrong - i don't know the shop at all - i was just curious if they replaced anything as the "real" solution to the problem, as i don't see anything unusual about the disk

as for the "rings", i have no idea what those are - there are no rings in there - there are a couple of shims, and of course the toothed retainer, but they are all fairly wide, and don't look like that at all - the only thing that looks like a ring is the retainer wire, and there is only 1 - if it popped out, your pedal would go to the floor and stay there when you pushed it, as the release bearing would no longer be attached to the pressure plate

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[flash]

p.s. - that also does not mean that replacing the clutch was a bad thing to do - even if it was the ring that popped out, to fix it you would have to remove the clutch, and it would be silly to put parts that old back in

no harm no foul - glad it's fixed

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[mrayner]

Yes that sounds like what happened. release bearing was no longer attached to the pressure plate and pedal would not return. I am not sure where the shredded metal rings came from. They replaced the parts. Perhaps it could have been the retaining wire? There was some grinding before the clutch failed. As for the flywheel the wear and tolerances were such that the shop said I needed a new clutch and flywheel.

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[flash]

no worries - like i said, no harm no foul, as with that mileage, it is certainly better than it was, and now you're good to go for a very long time (hydraulics notwithstanding)

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[rl968]

I was on my way to the track on Thursday morning and when I got off the exit and downshifted, the clutch pedal dropped to the floor. Stayed in 4th and limped into a gas station. Had the car towed back to my shop by AAA and determined that it was the clutch hose. What was interesting was that the hose did not burst, but instead it appears there is an obstruction in it or it's just so old that it has deteriorated to the point where it won't allow fluid to get through. When we pump the clutch pedal, we can see a bulge in the hose moving in and out, sort of like the mouth of a bull frog. Will change hose (and probably slave cylinder) and that should fix it. Disappointed I missed two track days, which would have been the first with this car. Will have to wait until next month.

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[flash]

that is exactly the most common problem - it is not likely blockage though - it's just a weak spot in the hose - every one i have seen so far is ballooning at exactly the same spot

just make sure you change the master and slave at the same time, if they are more than a couple of years old - failure to to that will just result in you being back in there again to replace the next weak link - that's the nature of hydraulics

while you are doing this job, this is an EXCELLENT time to flush your entire hydraulic system, which should be done every 2 years anyway

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[rl968]

Not sure about changing the MC, slave for sure. Flushed the brakes out a couple of weeks ago and put Motul in so I'm good there. Clutch will be bled with the Motul.

BTW, the ballooning occurred near the top of the hose just under the brake fluid reservoir.

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