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Brake ! warning light randomly comes on
#1

As in the previous post about master cylinder, the brake problem isn't gone (bleeding didn't help, but of course firmed up the brakes).



The ! warning light pops on, along with the red brake warning on the right of instrument panel. It comes on randomly, just driving down the freeway, stays on for just a second, it might happen about 5 times in half and hour, never stays on for more than a second. I can't correlate it with anything like speed or driving behavior. Fluid level is fine, and with the bleed it was all inspected, no leaks. One odd thing, the light has come on a few times when I was actually braking, and the pedal looses pressure and goes down about 1/2 an inch -- yeah, this experience certainly is confirms that your body still secretes adrenalin. But then when let off the pedal, and it is all back to normal.



So there is something that is "playing" with the pressure, I almost suspect the ABS control unit, because I can't think of anything else that would adjust the pressure. The shop says that essentially always when the light is coming on, without a known problem, it is the level sensor in the reservoir or the wear sensors. I was planning to "short" them all out to try to diagnose this thing, but then those causes wouldn't create the condition mentioned above where the pedal slips down when the light comes one. The shop simply recommends to replace the master cylinder, but there is no evidence that is that problem (only experienced guess work). I can't think of a caliper condition that might cause this.



So very odd, why does the light come on randomly while not eve braking, why would the pedal "loose pressure" when combination of braking and the light comes on.



Any ideas or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thank you.



Roland
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#2

the brake warning indicator can be triggered by a few things.



pad thickness is one. inspect the pad thickness. not likely the issue here though, as once the sensors wear, the light should stay on.



i'd take a look at the booster and see if there is a vacuum leak. not sure if the system is that smart, but it would change things.



take a good look at the sensor in the lid of the reservoir. those connections could be loose or bad. it wouldn't explain the pedal symptom though.



the ABS system could be acting up. if contamination gets in there, the system could be partially kicking in, which would affect the pedal.



the master is the more likely culprit though. if the seals are sticking, and the pedal is in a "down"position when checking the fluid, and then it pops up, the level could be low.



start by flushing the system and see if it changes. this should be done every 2 years anyway.
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#3

Thanks Flash,



"start by flushing the system and see if it changes." is what I had done last Tuesday, didn't help.



"pad thickness is one. ", shop said plenty of pad on all of them, that is what I expected.



"the ABS system could be acting up. if contamination gets in there, the system could be partially kicking in, which would affect the pedal.". Yeah, that is what worries me, I have no idea how to service it let alone where it is? Is there a way to disable it, maybe a fuse, and see if that changes things we can use as additional root-cause analysis?



"i'd take a look at the booster and see if there is a vacuum leak. ", yeah I wondering about this one, since the light comes on randomly without any active braking -- what if while driving along there is funny stuff about a vacuum leak



"the master is the more likely culprit though. " is what they said, but that is at least $800.00 (P&L) just to "try this".



Thank you!
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#4

I pulled the ABS fuse, #26, and will drive that way, see we can learn anything from that.
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#5

Did you just check the stupid switch for the handbrake? If it's marginal and the handbrake lever vibrates you could get the "!" randomly triggering.
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#6

good point. i had that happen once. it was up just the slightest amount, and it triggered the light.
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



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#7

[quote name='DaveN' timestamp='1380558515' post='150065']

Did you just check the stupid switch for the handbrake? If it's marginal and the handbrake lever vibrates you could get the "!" randomly triggering.

[/quote]

Good point! I had the same thing happen on my last P-car.
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#8

Thanks Dave, it sure gave me hope at work today, but then checking whenever the big red light comes on:

- the parking brake is in the lower left of the instrument panel, below temp and gas

- the detailed light coming on in this case is the "ABS" detail light, slightly above the oil pressure / voltage gauge.

Oh darn!



Removing the fuse for the ABS did nothing I can detect, other than both the [!] and detailed ABS lights stay on the whole time.



It does however suggest, I wonder if my ABS unit has a power supply problem, an intermittent, perhaps a bad ground that needs to be cleaned up. Sure would explain why it just flashes on for a second in middle of driving.
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#9

I had a failure of the abs relay a couple of years ago. the same symtoms........



those relays wear too.......
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#10

The pad wear electrical connectors leading from the pads should be checked for a good connection as they can tend to be a cause of red light illumination.
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#11

Reviving this thread since Kiwichris wrote with the same symptoms:
  1. the ABS warning light comes on intermittently both while simply driving and also when on the brakes (completely random, can't correlate to anything)

  2. speedo falls to zero when the light comes on

  3. I can hear some kind of "hydraulic" sound, almost a whooshing, when it happens -- suspect the hydraulic control unit is powering on/off.

  4. if the light comes on during braking, the pedal goes down 1/4 inch or so (wonderful feeling!).

  5. the frequency increases with time. When cold, the light may not come on for the first 1-2 minutes of driving, after 4-5 minutes it will come on more often, after 10 minutes it comes on more often and stays on longer.




Status:
  • bench tested the ABS relay in the fuse box, it seems fine. But this relay seems to pass on the "depressed brake" signal to the ABS controller (can see this in the wiring diagrams). And so I am discounting this a potential problem anyway, since the ABS warning light comes on without the pedal depressed.

  • warning light frequency is becoming more frequent, happens more often now.

  • there is an ABS tester available: called the "KDAS 0003", or see here: http://www.w124perfo..._ABS_tester.pdf (I don't have one!)

  • there may be another relay, see drawing 605-00 in the PET, item 10 is a relay which is a different part number than the ABS relay in the fuse box.


Next steps:
  • (I feel silly) does anyone know where the ABS hydraulic controller and the ABS computer are? Suspect they are behind the right front fender well liner. Do I have to remove the liner to get access? I'd like to check if there is another relay there, or if anyone knows where this other relay is on drawing 605-00 then please let me know.

  • Got advice that most often the problem is "the relay" or the wheel speed sensors. Evidently the wheel sensors can get dirty, or the wiring becomes unreliable. I think this is probably the next step, but I have no way of know which wheel!


Thank you!
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#12

agreed. the fact that the speedo falls to zero and the light comes on at the same time points to a speed sensor. they do get dirty.
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#13

Maybe there is a guy in Germany who has a light switch in his living room that he has no idea what it is for, but he goes and occasionally flicks it on and off for no reason and some how it is connected to your light.



sorry, I should have left it alone. Now Flash is going to yell at me.

Good luck!
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#14

nope - that one is connected to my coffee maker, which randomly loses its memory.
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



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#15

Then it must be the one in my living room - lol
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#16

yup



back on topic - i had this happen when i had stock pads. made a mess and buggered up a sensor. blew the dust out and fixed it. changed the pads to the porterfield R4-S and never had the problem again.
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



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#17

Flash, that gives me some hope, simply blowing the dust out? That sounds great, I imagined need to take things apart, or unscrewing sensors, get a rag and brake cleaner, inspect / test wires (of course break something else along the way), etc. I have a compressor, no big deal to just remove some wheels and assert some air. Even better, the porterfields I got from the group buy only went on the front -- there was plenty of pad left on the rears. So even better this suggests I start with the rear wheels. Thank you!
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#18

the speed sensor for the speedo is in the front.
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



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#19

Actually, I was suspecting the wheel sensors that feed the ABS.
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#20

i think the speedo dying is your key symptom. i think your problem lies at that wheel.
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