[rhudeboye]

Curious. What forum members would buy American and for what reasons. What prompted this poll is below. There was also the warranty thread.

I was in the barber shop the other day and over heard the next barber down talking. He is in the market for a new truck. As I listened to him and others talk about all the problems with Chevy vs ford, I spoke up and said "why not just get a Toyota and be done with it". He looked at me like I slapped his mother. Then he replied, "I don't like slitting my own throat!" the other 2 older gentlemen gave their nod of approval. I wanted to reply how do you feel about Chevy slitting it for you but that would've been disrespectful.

I own a 96 Toyota Land cruiser (loaded) -231K on the clock.
Since owner ship I have added:
1. New starter added at 226K.
2. Rear heater hose sprung a leak 2 years ago.
3. The bulb illuminating the letter D on the shift indicator has blown.

Outside of batteries, tires pads etc. These are the only issues I've faced in 13 years. We got a 99 Mazda Millenia in 2001. Come 2003 we had all sorts of problems. We were replacing something every 6 months. This is why we settled on the Camry. Not the most exciting car but Toyota has proved to be a reliable one for us. Then there's my dad who only buys American. I've seen many of his new Lincolns, dodges and fords go back for repair work within a year.

So I don't buy domestic.

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[flash]

i understand both sides of the argument on this

american quality has fallen, is generally more expensive than japanese stuff, and is not supported as well by the company

versus

japanese manufacturers are ruining the american economy by flooding the market with products the american manufacturers can't compete with - we should support the american companies and boycott the japanese

in my case, i didn't really care about either, and chose something specific to my needs

as to the first side of the argument though, this is bad business, and not a way to lure customers - you can't make an inferior product, charge more for it, and not support it

as to the second, this is entirely due to the greed of the auto industry unions - if the the leadership weren't so busy filling their coffers, and looking after maintaining their infrastructure, and really focused on the membership, we wouldn't be in this mess - they keep driving the costs up, and have pushed business overseas - labor is the single largest cost in building a car (or pretty much anything for that matter) - that has to be brought down - the only way i see to do it is to eliminate the union overhead - the pensions are ridiculous - the idea was to offset lower wages against a nice retirement - now the wages have caught up and passed the non-union workers, yet the retirement is still there - you can't pay for both and stay in business

so, do i support the american auto industry? hardly - in fact it was a tough decision to further perpetuate a faulty business plan, and further to also perpetuate environmental shortcomings of american cars - economic disaster aside, i'd love to see the whole thing crash, or better yet, be bought out by the employees

if a japanese company made a rig i could use, i would have bought it

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[biotechee]

Well, if I were to get a truck, I would buy a 2006-8 Ford F150. I also like some of Ford's other designs lately.

Chrysler- it'll be a cold day in hell before I buy a Chrysler. Chevy- while I eagerly anticipate the new Camaro, Chevy is only one small step above Chrysler in my book.

We have a 2004 Honda Pilot with over 111,000 miles. The only issue we have had was a disconnected ground cable on some special computer module. It took the dealer a couple of tries to figure it out and they replaced the module under warranty before they realized that a cable had come loose. This was done at around 60K miles and the original warranty was done (3/36). We actually spoke to Honda and they said they would cover the replacement module and the labor because something of that nature shouldn't go bad at only 60K miles.

My previous DD was a 1998 BMW 318i. Sold with about 178K miles. Only issues- cat finally went (disclosed to dealership where I traded it in), some issue with heater (again, disclosed to dealer). Nothing major during the life of the car except struts.

My current DD is a 2004 Jetta GLI VR6. Nearly 68K miles. My driver's side rear door sticks and I have the normal issues with the VW temp sensor (a very common issue), but nothing worth worrying about.

Neighbors bought a brand new Chrysler T&C- 1 year old. Tranny replaced under warranty already. Already going back in for more leaks. This is their second Chrysler minivan. Traded in their 1st on this new one. The first one had the same issues, plus a long history of visiting the dealer for repairs. Father-in-law has a Ford Escape- less than 30K miles, but past the 3 years- lots of problems with the ABS system.

While I may take significant flak for this, I hope our government reconsiders the auto bailouts. I would rather reap what we sow (as a country) than to waste my tax dollars trying to fix something that is, in my opinion, beyond repair. And yes I understand the reprecussions to the economy if one or all of the "big three" go under. Sometimes we need a good wake up call. I'm willing to face the music.

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[PorscheDude]

No, I buy used.
The Americans have lost touch with its consumers and what they want somewhere around 1972.

Since 1990, I have only owned 5 to 10 year old german cars.

My next one will be German as well.

Besides your Camery probably has way more "American" content than a Chevy, Ford or Chrysler.

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[94SilverCab]

Unless you count Volvo as Ford I am unlikely to buy American for quality reasons. I just purchased Volvo #2 based on the quality/dependability of #1.

The only Brand new car I ever purchased was a 1988 Chevy Beretta (OK, don't beat on me, wife liked it). At 60k it was played. I have been buying Japanese cas with 60k miles every since and typically get another 100k out of them.

Just my $.02

Jay

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[ds968]

I would love nothing more than to buy American cars but it's really sad and frustrating to see that year after year we produce more crap ( with very few exceptions ) As great as it would be to experience a resurgence of the American auto industry, making us feel proud of what we put on the road,
I fear that absent a miracle we will see the U.S. auto industry vanish in our lifetime and become the exclusive domain of imports, much like electronics..
Sigh..

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[rhudeboye]

<!--quoteo(post=69259:date=Mar 24 2009, 07:47 AM:name=biotechee)-->QUOTE (biotechee @ Mar 24 2009, 07:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Chrysler- it'll be a cold day in hell before I buy a Chrysler.
Neighbors bought a brand new Chrysler T&C- 1 year old. Tranny replaced under warranty already. Already going back in for more leaks. This is their second Chrysler minivan. Traded in their 1st on this new one. The first one had the same issues, plus a long history of visiting the dealer for repairs.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I have not 1, not 2 but 4 stories just like that. 2 dealing with the 300 and 2 with the T&C.
Its hard to believe that these major issues go unchecked and the dealers have got to be frustrated as well.

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[flash]

it's sad because chrysler used to make the toughest stuff out there - if you wanted pretty you bought chevy - if you wanted cheap you bought ford - if you wanted tough you bought a dodge

nightmares with trannies and brakes are what chased me away from ford - dodge just didn't make anything in a full sized SUV - i ended up with GMC

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[PorscheDude]

<b>D</b>ogsh*t <b>O</b>n <b>D</b>ead <b>G</b>rass <b>E</b>verywhere......

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[rhudeboye]

<!--quoteo(post=69260:date=Mar 24 2009, 07:50 AM:name=PorscheDude)-->QUOTE (PorscheDude @ Mar 24 2009, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Besides your Camery probably has way more "American" content than a Chevy, Ford or Chrysler.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

True. I read about that in a mag a while back. The Camry and accord are about 60% and 70% american parts. Didn't know it at time of purchase though.
Glad to be doing my part [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]

If you come across a chart listing what parts are American made, pass it along. I'm curious if any parts of the powertrain are in there.

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[PorscheDude]

http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/inthene...10-06.html

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[RPM]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->american quality has fallen, is generally more expensive than japanese stuff, and is not supported as well by the company<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

While quite a popular opinion among politicians and pundits these days, none of these contentions survives scrutiny once you stop thinking like it is 1985 - when all three were true. Did the Big Three build some terrible cars and loose all touch with their customers? Yes they did. Did they for far too long sink all of their time and energy into SUVs? Yes (but that was what we the public wanted...) they did. Is this true today? No.

Some facts:

• Car and Driver just chose the new Ford Fusion hybrid in a comparison of Toyota, Ford, Nissan, and Chevy hybrid sedans - it was not even close in their opinion - and the Ford was cheaper.
• Buick just won JD Power's survey of dependability (tied surprisingly with Jaguar)
• US manufacturers are offering their cars at historically low prices
• Chevrolet is closer to offering an actually practical true electric sedan than any car maker in the world.

Some great current US cars:

• Cadillac CTS
• Corvette
• New F150 and Silverado and Dodge Ram
• Ford Fusion
• Chevrolet Mailibu
• The upcoming Taurus replacement looks stunning - and the SHO version will be a screamer.

Are there still some crappy US cars - sure. But both GM and Ford have made tremendous strides in the past 10 years. The Chevy Malibu is a superior car (I have driven all three) to either the Camry or Accord - and less expensive. Toyota and Nissan truck sales have never even come close to the volume of US - because the trucks are not as good. Toyota quality has slipped in JD Power's initial quality surveys for 4 straight years.

However - the industry is still in real trouble. The problems of outmoded and unneeded capacity, high wages, and legacy health care costs may yet kill them all, and some of their cars do suck.

Now, does this mean we should buy American cars? Not at all... you should buy what you like. But the basic (and very popular in Washington) premise that American manufacturers cannot compete/do not make good cars is just not true.

As for Volvo - I have an S60 T5. While I love the car, it has spent literally months in the shop with problems that they could never diagnose properly. Luckily it was all under warranty and I had a loaner the whole time.

<b>Important Caveat</b> - None of this discussion applies to Chrysler, whose cars in general are just awful (expect the Dodge Ram, Chrysler 300 (getting old), and Jeep Wrangler).

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[biotechee]

I really like the Ford Fusion (and its Lincoln couterpart- MKZ?). Hate the looks of the Malibu. Total fail in the design department as far as I am concerned.

If I had to buy a new Ford/GM/Chrysler, it would be the Fusion without a doubt. New Accord looks like crap. New Maxima looks like crap. Never really liked the Camry.

When the wife is due for new vehicle, the Honda Pilot is at the top of her list. I keep pushing her to get a sports sedan, but she likes the "utility"!

Another factor that may or may not come into play-

Our neighbors, the Chrysler owners, routinely complain about the dealerships in our area. The husband owns a Jetta for his daily driver and he has been much happier with the VW service when compared to the chuckleheads at the Dodge/Chrysler dealer. Given their experience with the local American dealers, I have vowed to do what I can to not buy a vehicle from them (the specific dealers).

For me, I was marginally happy with the VW place, but now I take it to an indy right around the corner. The local BMW dealership where I had my 318i serviced was phenomenal and phenomenally expensive! The Honda dealer for the wife's ride blows. The sales people are asses and the service rep is a total waste of O2. The techs are OK. We specifically drove 45 minutes to buy the Pilot from another dealer because the moron at our local place was a total pr!ck. They still get our service, but I refuse to ever buy a vehicle there. I could pretty much do everything on the Pilot myself, but I don't have the time.

So, I guess when you boil it all down.... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif[/img]

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[RPM]

Dealership problems are a constant... with both domestic and foreign. Local Chrysler service department just quoted my son $600 for a 30k service on his 2004 PT Cruiser! At the same time, for years when I owned VWs I had to carefully watch the service invoices for padding and outright thievery.

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[PorscheDude]

My dad has had great customer service and no hassles at out local BMW dealer. From factory maintenance to the 2 warrenty repairs.
From his experience I would rate this particular dealer B+.

YMMV.

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[968Oz]

I have only lived in the US briefly and drove Japanese then, so I can't comment on build quality, reliability etc. But as a frequent visitor for the last 3 decades, I can say that average DD american cars are SO ugly and lacking in style I would never contemplate buying one!

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[Chris Vais]

I haven't purchased an American Car in a long time now, mostly due to the fact that US auto makers haven't marketed the kind of cars I'm interested in driving. When I bought my first Audi Avant in 1993, there were two American choices if you wanted a station wagon and not an SUV, Ford and Mercury. I tried them both and found them to be underpowered and uncomfortable to drive for long periods. That Audi lasted 11 years and 249,000 miles before it was totaled in an accident. The build quality and design of that car saved my wife's life.

Watched Top Gear last night and they tested an American made car that uses a hydrogen fuel cell to generate electricity to power and electric motor power train. A smart design that outclasses the current hybrids by a mile. They also did a drag race between a Tesla and a Lotus, no contest, the Tesla blew the Lotus off, but it's limited range and lengthy recharge time limit its practicality. I would consider a hydrogen fuel cell car as a daily driver. I believe that widespreard acceptance of this technology would go a very long way towards preserving our dwindling oil resources so that there will still be gasoline to run our Porsches on.

I would like to see the american car manufacturers go into bankruptcy so they can shed their onerous union contracts and outrageous pension costs and emerge from bankruptcy leaner and focused on moving forward.

Keep in mind that it was the tremendous manufacturing capability of the US that built this country into the richest most powerful country in the world. If we continue to let our manufacturing jobs go overseas, our economy will become ever more unsettled and we will loose our economic and political influence in the world. There is no way we can continue to be a powerhouse if the majority of jobs avaliable are partime minimum wage jobs at Wal-Mart, Stabucks or Micky D's.

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[PorscheDude]

<!--quoteo(post=69278:date=Mar 24 2009, 02:11 PM:name=Chris Vais)-->QUOTE (Chris Vais @ Mar 24 2009, 02:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I would like to see the american car manufacturers go into bankruptcy so they can shed their onerous union contracts and outrageous pension costs and emerge from bankruptcy leaner and focused on moving forward.

Keep in mind that it was the tremendous manufacturing capability of the US that built this counrty into the richest most powerful country in the world. If we continue to let our manufacturing jobs go overseas, our economy will become ever more sed and we will loose our economic and political influence in the world. There is no way we can continue to be a powerhouse if the majority of jobs avaliable are partime minimum wage jobs at Wal-Mart, Stabucks or Micky D's.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Bravo!

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[rxter]

So which American car would you buy if you didn't vote "never"?

I don't like family sedans, so that rules out the few really good cars that are designed and mfg by US HQ'd companies. I had a truck once. Loved it and wished that I had saved it for my son, but I don't really need that anymore either. Leaves me with small, fast, fun cars to drive.

Soltice/Redline? Nice looking car, but I sat in one at a car show and thought I was falling out of the car - odd driving position.
CTS Coupe? A bit large
Vette? Way large
Viper? Straight line rocket sled
I am running out of options.

Seems like the MX5, Z370/G37, and several German cars are well superior in this segment.

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[flash]

i don't know about 1985, but here's how i gauge this stuff:

quality:
do the interior panels rattle loose after 2 years?
does the coating come off of them?
does the engine or anything start leaking?
do noises appear after the first year?

pricing:
feature package by feature package, what do you get for your dollar? a japanese car generally costs less than the american car, feature for feature

warranty:
at this point most "normal" foreign cars are 5 year 60000 or better, and have been for a while now - american cars are only recently upgrading to that level

i'm not saying that american cars suck, or we shouldn't buy them - all i am saying is they are behind the curve, and i blame the labor cost - bad management aside (and there has been plenty of that) it pales by comparison to the building costs

i think 2 things need to happen:

1. the companies need to build cars the public wants and needs, not what the companies think are cheaper to build and have a higher profit margin - this means taking profit out of the equation

2.. the employees should own the company

i think that as a part of the "bailout", the government should purchase the companies, and then sell them back to the employees - there should be no multi-million dollar salaries for board members - there should be very strict requirements that insures that efficient cars are built, and stiff penalties on "luxury" vehicles

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