[earossi]

Flash,



Any info on the new exhaust you have been working on? I am holding off until I see some results of your efforts. To date, the system offered by RS BArnes seems to offer the most performance gain.



Regards,



Ernie

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[flash]

actually moving along on that - will have info soon - we are utilizing some things nobody else is, that should make for some very nice results - i don't want to go into detail just yet though - i am probably 2 weeks from that

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[968Z]

I too will be interested to see the outcome of the Flash exhaust. I am certain it will be tested to the nth degree. Hopefully the cost will fall in the "Airbox Modification" range! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[SoCalKen]

I'll buy your old exhaust system if it is not called for?



Ken

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[flash]

a lot of discussion about exhaust lately



ok - it's a bit premature, but here goes



ken - i think you've been in line for that for a while now haven't you? you and dj have both been asking for it - i'm fine either way - if you can't wait, you can duplicate any of the systems out there for a little under 600 bucks, if you are willing to spend the day at the exhaust shop - that is exactly what i did (i used aluminized tubing though to save weight, and also get it done even cheaper)



cost on my new unit will be as low as possible - i'm not really doing it to make money - it's going to be more of a hobby that pays for itself - we are estimating the cat-back to be just under 600 and the full cat to be just under 800 - i'll let you know after my meeting this weekend if that number holds up



to answer the obvious questions that i can answer at this time, yes it will be all stainless - yes it will be bolt up



i can't get into how much power it will make yet, because we haven't tested it yet



yes, it wil be tested to the "Nth" degree - we plan to test it on the same car on the same dyno, on the same day, against a stock system



if it doesn't outperform everything out there, we won't do it - i don't want to do it in the first place, but nobody else wants to spend the time and money to do the R&D required to develop one that gets every last bit - i understand that for sure - it isn't going to be cheap to figure out - so, i guess i have to do it - as long as i am, i might as well make a bunch of them (sounds all too familiar)



we will not be making a long tube header 4 to 1 - that is really more for racing, and the stuff i am working on is for street - besides, the header designers i've talked to over the years at stan's, burns, s&s, and hooker, say that the stock tri-y design is best for down low and mids, where most of us drive most of the time - as fun as the extra oomph might be up top, we are not willing to sacrifice things down low, and that is just way too much r&d anyway- cudos to anybody who does it



no free lunch either way - gotta make your choices - we may try to correct the bend of the 1-4 tube, but that is it - the 2-3 tube is perfect as it is



so far, i have not seen anything to contradict any of that, but, this is a weirdo intake, and who knows?



besides, pete makes a beautiful 4 to 1 header, and i am not looking to compete with anybody by duplicating something of quality that is already out there

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[Harvey]

Flash, you're a good man. What I don't understand is how you "test" the efficiency/HP gains without building a zillion different configurations. Sounds like a huge task. If it's successful and you could carry the idea over to the 944s you might make more than pin money.



Harvey

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[flash]

it is a huge task to say the least - it has already been a large task on the 3 versions i have already done - the good news is that the process has told me definitively that no standard 2.5" single pipe with a muffler setup is going to work perfectly (with or without a resonator) - it doesn't matter whose tube, bender, or muffler you use



that is what led us to the new idea



i don't need the money - that's not why i am getting into this - as long as it breaks even for me, i'm fine - also, really i have no interest in carrying over to a 944 - that crowd is generally very tight fisted (and i am generalizing) - the effort needed would not be worth it - very different attitude with them (probably because you can buy an early 944 for about the cost of a set of tires for a 968)



besides, it wouldn't apply to a 944 - that is a very common misconception - while the roots are common, the engines are very different - in fact, the resonant induction intake manifold, specific to the 968, is exactly why the standard design, which everybody is currently using, doesn't work - as soon as you relieve the back pressure, you screw up the pulse timing and gas velocity - it works fine on 944s, and for that matter, just about every other car - it doesn't work on the 968



i've been very slow diving into this, because of how much work it is going to be - i was really hoping somebody else would work it out - oh well - no worries

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[Etnier]

[quote name='flash' date='Jan 12 2006, 10:25 AM']cost on my new unit will be as low as possible - i'm not really doing it to make money - it's going to be more of a hobby that pays for itself - we are estimating the cat-back to be just under 600 and the full cat to be just under 800 - i'll let you know after my meeting this weekend if that number holds up[/quote]

In case anyone is following only this thread, and has missed the concurrent "Group Buy" thread, Flash has recently stated he is not certain his work will ever result in a 'production' system.

while i would love to be able to make these for everybody else, i may find that it is just too tough, and end up with just one for myself

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[flash]

well, hard as it is to say, it mostly comes down to the behavior of those who want it - i am not inclined to get into another big hooha back and forth about the system



the effort i am talking about really has nothing to do with the design, testing or fabrication - it's the "customers" - take a quick look back at all the flack i've gotten every time i've worked on something - i'm more than a little gun shy



i'm wrestling with how to go about it - i feel like i want to say "here it is - here are the specs" and leave it at that, answering no questions whatsoever - unfortunately that obviously won't work



the other issue is that, if i go to the expense of the testing required to satisfy the "customers" i would have to have an expectation of sales to pay for it - if i knock out one system, and then somebody decides to copy it, i am then stuck - of course anyone can copy something for less than what somebody else is selling it for - i've already done that with my current system - i didn't have to pay for any production tooling or anything, so of course i got the same system as what is out there for a lot less money



so, how do i adequately convey what it is and what it does, without giving away the tricks and again losing my shirt? that is the part i haven't worked out yet, and the "too tough" thing yet to be considered



if this can be simple and clean, and i can avoid hassles, then fine - otherwise, i'll just keep it to myself and enjoy the extra power, free from the aggravation - remember, this is a hobby to me, and not a business - hobbies need to be fun, otherwise they are called "work"

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[SILVY968]

Flash,

Either add profit to make it worth your time to build the unit, or post tons of pics, specs, drawings and whatever you have that enabled you to build. There could be a small fee for this info to offset your time and energy. Those that want the item can take it to their fabficator and build a set.

Whatever you decide to do, do not loose the energy that you have put in to develop a cool power item.

Let the market decide. If nobody wants to pay for information that has a value, then keep it to yourself and enjoy the fruits of YOUR labor!

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[flash]

well, that sounds simple, but..........



in order for people to feel like they can go do it, i would have to do testing that i would not do for myself - that time and cost is not something i am inclined to lay out without expectation of recoupement



besides, if i am going to do it just for myself, i am probably going to skip the intermediate single exhaust step altogether, and go straight to dual exhaust - i was only going to do the single as a stop gap until i decide to repaint the rear bumper cover again, when i would ultimately go dual anyway



this entire single exhaust project is premised on enough people buying it to pay for the development of it, and doing so without any of the hassles i've thusfar encountered



if anybody's in a hurry, i'd buy pete's system - it's cleaner than the B&B, and without the resonance issues, and the better mounting should resolve the cause of the reported failures of the B&B - it's the best bolt-up out there so far

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[Greimann]

Just some constructive criticism here flash



The reason you get so much flak about your projects is that you promote Looong before you have cut one chip. That sets the expectation from the group that something will be available shortly. After several months or a year passes the audience tends to get restless and starts to question whether it was all just bluster. Not unreasonable.



That and whenever another vendor comes out with some performance item, you give them the 3rd degree on level of testing, quality, price, material's, etc. If you give, you should be willing to get.

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[flash]

on the first part - yes - that has been how it has worked out - i'm not happy about it either - that is my own fault for taking people at thier word and then being disappointed when they don't live up to it



on the second, nope - i don't give anybody the third degree - i do have high standards - i do expect the same level of testing that i would be willing to undergo BEFORE releasing a product, or making any claims - it is irresposible, misleading, illegal, and just plain bad business to put out a product with makes unsupported claims (and i am not referring to anyone in particular) - for example, if i go forward with this, it will be because i can show documented gains - so far, nobody has built one that shows any contribution in horsepower - to me, there would be no point in building, let alone selling, yet another system that shows no horsepower gains, or worse, could easily be duplicated for less at your local exhaust shop - there are plenty of those out there now - i understand that not everybody wants to spend a day at the exhaust shop, or knows what to tell them to do, so there is a real, albeit limited, market for those kinds of systems, but it's not something that interests me as a business - i'm going to leave that to pete, who has gone way out of his way and successfully done the best possible on improving the "B&B design"



anybody should be able to ask the obvious questions of a product before buying it or recommending it - i expect a reasonable amount of that on anything i decide to make available - in fact, i would encourage it - i may not think of all of the answers to the questions before they are asked, and it may lead to a better product - it definitely did on the chassis brace - however, there too many occasions of unreasonable questions, and it is those who will affect my decisions on what to produce or not, based on the amount of such inquiry and scrutiny i am willing to undergo



i brought a lot of this on myself - i presumed the same "instant friend" kind of thing i ran into in the british sports car groups - but then, the crowd was older - the average age was over 40 - the 968 group has not been so immediately open, and also not nearly as old - perhaps i should have posted my resume before diving into any of this, and then the 25 years, many of which were professional, performance auto and racing history might have staved off some of the questions



who knows? who cares? i'm still doing a system for my car, and we'll see what happens from there - if it does what i think it will, maybe i'll just license it to pete

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[Greimann]

[quote name='flash' date='Jan 15 2006, 02:33 PM'].... perhaps i should have posted my resume before diving into any of this, and then the 25 years, many of which were professional, performance auto and racing history might have staved off some of the questions

[right][post="14613"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Add comedian to your list of qualifications.

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[Etnier]

There's clearly a lot of interest in this matter, stoked in no small part by Flash's regular posts on the subject of pulse timing and the deficiencies of all the extant aftermarket systems in this regard. His impressively-researched answer to this problem has been in the works for months, and I for one have been holding off upgrading my exhaust on the assumption that the fruit of this effort would be made available for the enthusiast community. Meanwhile, others are promulgating group buys and discussing the pros and cons of the extant systems.



Having come this far, Flash is now anticipating flack and God knows what all. (I'm tempted to point out that he who lives by the sword should stay out of the kitchen, but... naahh...) We're told the project may now produce only a private one-off. The development process itself seems a way from completion.



Where does this leave those of us who have appreciated and benefitted from his earlier efforts, who have abstained from, and would rather abstain from jumping on Flash because of personality issues? IMHO it seems clear there's little to be gained from waiting for this development process to end: we're being told in no uncertain terms that it's a royal PITA, may take a long time still*, and what comes from the effort may never be made available to enthusiasts. A group buy is underway and another option seems to offer an attractive alternative as well. I guess these products may have pulse timing issues, but the numerical significance of this problem is uncertain: AFAIK there's nothing out there to document or bolster the argument that a problem actually exists.



This is not working out well. Personally, I've been biding my time because the wait seemed worthwhile. All I wish is that some part of this bad news had been enunciated a bit more clearly several months ago.



*my car's at around 93K miles right now.

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[flash]

wow - this sure spun oddly awfully quickly - ok - let's see



dave - oddly, i actually did a bit of that for a while - it's on a long list of things in my history that nobody knows about - you can do a lot when you don't sleep - from the time i was 8 to 35, i never slept more than 4 hours a night - think about the realities of that, and what you can get done in a day - it will boggle your mind - that's how i was able to graduate high school 9th in my class, with 7 letters, and with 2 years of college already under my belt - heck, for about 5 years, i worked full time during the day as a mechanical designer, and then went and spent 8 hours at my shop every day, before finally quitting the day gig and opening the shop full time - all that was after already having spent almost 3 years spending every spare moment either at the track on a pit crew, or at a shop working on vintage race cars (that's how i got the bug) - and that only gets us up to 88



oh well - enough about me



john - my apologies for your personal delays, and anybody else who has been waiting on this



as i have told everyone all along, if you are in a hurry, move along - i have always said it was third in line on a list of projects, and i am still trying to get the first one completed - vendors that work on spec are very slow - if somebody wants to lay down the 3 grand to build it and test it, and then another 2 to gear up for production, with the knowledge that there is a possibility that it might not result in anything, i could go ahead now - without that though, the schedule falls prey to every other project that gets in the way - why don't you guys get together, pool your money and get back to me?



i have always stated that if it doesn't work, i won't go forward, and all cost developing to that point is lost - that generally limits the level of interest of other parties - at this time, it's all my money - i'm already on my second system, at my own expense, with testing on both previous ones, also at my own expense - i'm still going forward with my own, because i know this single 2.5" pipe / muffler / resonator design doesn't work right, and i know there is more to be had



as for the new system, if it does what it should, then i'm reasonably sure it will get made by somebody, if not me - i am not enthused about getting bashed again, and will find a course that leaves me out of that



if you guys are really upset though, you should take a good look at those who are selling systems right now, with no horsepower improvements to show (and i'm not singling anybody out) - these people are marketing something under the presumption of performance gain to those who don't know any better, when in reality, no matter how desireable, it is still only an improvement in sound and throttle response, and at a large premium, yet nobody faults them - it's laundry soap marketing - but then, P.T. said it best, didn't he?



hasn't anyone else caught on that "new and improved" very often only means "hey, we tried to fix something - it didn't work - we spent a ton of money, but this is no better than the last one, but since we need to recoupe our efforts, we're going to sell it anyway"



perhaps my expectation of vendors is too high - i expect them to show me data to support claims, or take products off the shelf - i expect them not to release them without proper testing



i only told people about it so they wouldn't waste their money on something that doesn't make power, thinking that it did, when there was a possibility of something that actually could - when i started this, i thought i was doing the right thing - i could have kept my mouth shut, and let everyone unknowingly drop their nickle - caveat emptor, right? had i have known it was going to take this long, i would have let them go



this process is taking a lot longer than i wanted it to, and as a result, if it works, i am likely going to have to go with a different vendor - this should have been done months ago - it's every bit as frustrating for me as it is for any of you



so, in the end, i'm either guilty of the sin of knowingly letting someone get hurt, or of selfishly putting my own needs ahead of someone else's - not a fun place either way



the bottom line is that my desires and intentions have not changed - nor has my expectation of results - the timing, and final form, however, is an entirely different oprah, so again, my apologies

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[BruceWard]

Last time I spoke to Scott M. he was designing the exhaust for Flash to market to us just has he had done with the "chasis brace". He was planning to get started on the exhaust in 2006 after the "chasis braces" had shipped. He said the main slowdown both on the "chasis braces" and on development of the exhaust was availability of a 968 for test fitting. If a west coaster would like to make their 968 available athe could get moving on the exhaust.



Personally I am impressed with the "chassis brace" Scott produced and excited about the possibility of the exhaust.

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[SANDOVAL]

If Scott wants to sell his products using this forum he can contact me directly to sponsor the forum. RS barn is a paying sponsor with Fantastic products. I urge you to take a look at their exhaust as it is not a pie in the sky concept. If there is enough interest I would think Pete would put together a group buy.



Contact Pete directly at http://www.rsbarn.com/

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[Brian]

i design houses for a living. i know what it is to come up with an idea and then have it take a while to finalize all the details and bring a product to market. it's frustrating for everyone involved to have to wait for something new to come out.



i've always felt that people who create ideas and products should be rewarded and respected. it's what makes america great. we don't wait for japan to come out with things and then rip them off. we're the creators. the row copies for the most part.



to cut flashes legs out from under him because you're impatient is garbage. it's worse than that. i don't have the words to describe what it is. if you don't want his product or don't like his ideas, just look the other way. don't ruin something he's trying to do for the rest of us!



there is going to be a constant battle between visionaries and technicians.

thank god that we have both. without ideas, workers would have nothing to do. without workers, ideas would die.



keep the ideas coming, flash. most of us enjoy hearing them. most of us respect a guy who thinks outside of the box, even if we don't always agree with you.



thanks to the moderator for cutting out most of that last message.

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[flash]

brian - thanks more than you know - it's reassuring to know that people understand what it is like on this end



john - bruce's above post (and you should have seen what it was before it was edited by the moderator) is typical of exactly why i am hesitant to revisit the process of being a vendor



bruce - i have no intention of getting into another pissing contest with you, but i thought it was prudent to set the record straight - i just got of the phone with scott - i wanted to make sure that you were once again making this stuff up as you go along, in yet another transparent yet futile attempt to make me look bad



across the board, you are so far off base, it's actually comical - so much so, that he really doesn't want to hear from you - you should have cashed the refund check when he, as a direct result of all the shenanigans, cancelled your order - no worries - your credit card is being reversed instead - he doesn't need or want the headaches that doing business with you would represent



you have only served to slow down the process and force him to have to rethink his involvement with this group in the future - your actions have been directly responsible for a good part of what will be a price increase in any future chassis brace units - everyone here has you to thank for that



as for this system, i will get it done as fast as i can - it isn't the only thing on my plate



if anybody is in a hurry and can't wait, the RS BARN unit is the best thing out there, and superior in many ways to the B&B - it is clean, very well made, should sound smoother and fuller than the B&B, and not have the problems that i've heard of with the B&B - i recommend putting together a group buy of that unit for those who can't wait to see what i come up with



side note - the RS BARN unit will be superior to mine to anyone considering a racing application - while i don't want to give up top end, mine is specifically targeting street application, focusing more on lows and mids, and will likely have some top end limitations not found in that unit



there is no free lunch

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