[pazzer]

having decided on going the full coil over set for my clubsport, escort cups, if i dont win those penske's off ebay, what is required for this procedure, is it just a case of removing the torsions and uprating the bushes to those poly bronze mythingys, the car is going to be fully track focused so im not worried about comfort driving. tried looking through all the modification posts but no joy on torsion bars and deleting them, p.s. not club racing the car so no rules to abide to, just track days for my own pleasure, your knowledge is most welcome all you racers out there. many thanks pazzer.

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[Jason Judd]

When I did the same thing with my car, I contacted Kokeln and Racer's Edge to get the scoop.



Kokeln has a pretty trick setup that replaces the rear end...but it's not cheap. Racer's Edge has the individual pieces.



I ended up using parts from both places.



Jason

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[flash]

deleting the torsion bars is a fairly significant job - you will need a torch - the stock rubber bushings have to be removed, and a torch was the only way i found to do it



then, whichever shock you use, it will need a spherical bearing instead of a rubber bushing on each end - the rubber can't handle the entire load



you will also need the lower mount gidgets that racer's edge has for the shocks



prepare yourself for a bit more cabin noise as a result of all of it though

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[Eric_K]

Technically, you do not have to do anything except drop the torsion bar carrier and remove the tb's and add the coilovers. This is not the best solution but it is perfectly workable (if your rubber spring plate bushings are still in good condition). I ran many a track day with that setup.



The best setup is the Koklen torsion tube replacement but that is serious $. Otherwise, it is removing rubber bushings everywhere - like Flash mentioned.

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[flash]

aaaakk!!! wow! when i was looking into this, everybody i talked to (karl, jason, et all) said this is a very big no no because the inboard connection is no longer there to keeping the trailing arm in place, and would allow it to move significantly, and was actually dangerous - they said this would make for some very unpleasant things in handling, and that you absolutely had to either have something in there to connect the outboard to the inboard, or run a more solid bushing to eliminate the play (delrin, polybronze, etc)

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[Eric_K]

The torsion bars add no structural integrity to the rear end. If they did then just changing the bushing material wouldn't fix it. The flex/play in the rubber bushing will be about the same whether the torsion bar is there or not. The car handled quite well in all the years I had it like that. For me, changing to the poly bronze bushings did not make a significant difference to the handling.



Changing the bushings is good advice but in my opinion it is not a requirement.

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[flash]

i don't know how to describe this, but i'll give it a try



the swing arm was locked onto the torsion bar in position via the splines on the outboard end of the torsion bar - the torsion bar was also locked into position at the inboard point via the splines on that end - that made the swing arm very positively located - it could not wiggle at all - without the torsion bar to hold it in place, the swing arm is allowed to pivot on the rubber bushing - those bolts aren't very tight, so as to allow the swing arm to move freely in there, and in being that loose, the swing arm floats in the housing a bit



granted, it can only move as much as the gap between the end cap and the flange, but it moves nonetheless



perhaps your rubber bushings were very hard - mine were reasonably soft and compliant, at least so much that they would definitely have allowed lateral movement



karl at racer's edge or jason at paragon could possibly explain this better - they are the ones i talked to way back when i was first messing with this

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[Eric_K]

I agree it moves but not significantly different than with the tb's in there. There is also play in the torsion bar end caps - the splines are not that long. Not to mention the end cap is about 5 inches away from the pivot point.



All I can offer is first hand experience. In about 5 years of use, 30+ track days, 20+ races and an 8 hour endurance race - rubber spring plate bushings and no torsion bars never caused a problem and there were not any handling issues. I've had the ploybronze in for the last year and they work great too. YMMV.

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[flash]

no worries - i never tried it and am only going by the information provided by the sources we all use



as a note, i could immediately feel the difference, especially in an off camber bump, and also in abrubt lateral weight transfers, between the delrin and the rubber (though now i have polybronze) - the car was just more solid feeling - it became even more evident how sloppy the rubber was making things when i replaced the control arm bushings with monoballs



so, maybe your rubber was really hard - currently, i have zero movement - we all know that any play is bad, so i think maybe you are a better driver than you think you are to do well with that setup - very cool - imagine what it would have been like if you had everything tight

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[Cloud9...68]

For those of us who are ignorant about this, what are the major advantages of deleting the torsion bars? I remember Flash mentioning there is a slight reduction in weight, but there have to be more benefits to go through the amount of work you guys are describing.



Also, what is the Koklen torsion tube replacement? Thanks.

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[Dave]

Torsion bars need to be indexed for a specific ride-height range. If you wish to change outside of that range, big labor/time to re-index them.



You're also saddled with the spring action of the torsions which complicates changing spring rates.



Hope this explains it.

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[pazzer]

Thanks guys for all the info, I think removing them and running full coil overs is the way to go, as for the kokeln delete kit it retails about $2500.00 i think that eqautes to around £1700.00 in my currency. But if you consider the labour cost for a specialist to re-index and set up the torsions with all the relevent bushings im not going to be out of pocket that much. £600 for re-indexing plus i will have a ultra trick rear set up that others over here will swoon over no doubt. The only thing that pisses me is the bloody postage cost to the uk, why dont we have all this top stuff, well never mind just have to work a bit harder and longer and my porsche will go to the ball. $10,000 should cover the whole suspension, chuck in a full cage and track days here we come. chow for now, pazzer. speaking of being out of pocket my clubsport cost me £13000.00 to put straight, should of had i checked out before i did the deal with a well known uk parts specialist, costs so far as follows:



car purchase = 6500.00

repair work = 13000.00

cs recaros = 1000.00

993 bigreds = 700.00

discs x 4 = 550.00



so at the moment the car owes me £22000.00 or near enough, if i had to sell it the market at the moment i would be very lucky if i recouped half of that and it is a full mo30 lightweight shell no sunrooof, windup windows, etc. i have set myself a budget of another £10000.00 (p.s.dont tell the wife) to get it how i want it that includes full coil overs, 18 inch carrera's, braided brake hose's, new exhaust (rs barn), all new bushes every where, and a full cage. ooops dont think theres much change left out of that, might get a full tank of gas and a jet wash. regards pazzer. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/cool.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

mike-



the major advantage is the ease of spring change and ride height set - the weight savings is minimal (net is only about 5 lbs)



the kolkeln replacement is a unit that entirely replaces the torsion tube assembly - it is about 25 lbs lighter, and a lot more adjustable than the stock setup - pretty sweet unit though

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[Cloud9...68]

Thanks for the info, guys. I've just done a couple of DEs myself, and am years (or so it seems) from the point where the car set-up will be a major factor in how fast I get around the track - the dummy behind the wheel is 100% of the limiting factor right now - though at least I'm on the fun part of the learning curve. But when and if I get to the point where the car becomes the limiter, I'll be looking into this stuff for sure.

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[flash]

lol - ain't that the truth? now if only i could stop tinkering and actually drive mine

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[Eric_K]

Here are some links to the stuff discussed.





http://www.kokeln.com/products/951_8689/re...uspension.shtml



http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/b...944bushings.htm



http://www.paragon-products.com/product_p/...ort_cup_944.htm



I need to stop racing mine so I can afford to upgrade it more......nah.

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[flash]

lol - too funny - i think i need to start racing mine so i can stop upgrading it - nah



fun though isn't it? i can't think of too many cars that would provide this kind of fun to work on

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[ether_joe]

what's the joke. . . oh yes,



how do you make a small fortune in auto racing? . . . start with a large one. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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