[Brian]

my coolant experience never ends!

i finally got all my thermostat parts in last night.

everything is great, except that i can't get the inner sealing ring to fit.

it's part number 951 106 155 00.

from what i can tell, it's supposed to fit in a counterbore in the inner ring of the coolant pump and seal against the leading small edge of the thermostat.

it took me quite a while to peel the old one out of the engine last night and i went to put the new one in and i just couldn't get it to fit. i pushed from every angle until i lost my cool and called it a night.

please tell me there's a trick to this thing.

i'm half hoping that i have the wrong part somehow.



on a side note, the snap ring pliers that i bought are small and wimpy and just won't do the job on that huge snap ring for the thermostat. anyone have a suggestion on how to find a good set? that ring is huge!



thanks for any help.

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[Brian]

i just talked to a porsche mechanic who said that place where the sealing ring goes probably has some build-up on it. he suggested scraping it off and trying again.

i don't know how i can get in there with a tool to scrape w/o removing the water pump!



looks like i'll be removing the water pump.



anyone have any advice on removing the water pump? looks like i have to remove the trim piece on the front of the block to get to it.



once i get it out, i'll try a dremmel until i bore out the garbage.



what a mess!!!

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[Greimann]

You have to remove the belts and balance shaft pullies to get the water pump off, so be prepared for a complete belt job (and rollers too?) !

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[BruceWard]

If I pulled the water pump I would replace it and as Dave mentioned the timing belt, balance belts and associated rollers.



How many miles does your 968 have? You might want to replace the variocam pads and chain as well. Next time the timing belt is off the variocam pads and chain will be changed on mine.

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[Brian]

oh @#$%!!!

i can't be doing all that!

thanks for the tips. you saved me from a big mistake tonight.



my only other hope is to somehow clean out the water pump from it's installed position.

i do have a snake extension tool for my dremmel. i could try that. the tough thing is that i can't see inside the housing. it'll all have to be by feel. maybe i'll pick up one of those dentist mirror gizmos tonight.



worst case, i mess it up and have to get a new pump. not any worse that what i'm looking at to begin with!



i have a feeling that i should flush the system again after i'm done with my clean up job.

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[sasilverbullet]

brian - I had the same problem and I just "made" a gasket out of gasket material and silicone sealed it. Works great! no leaks...

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[Brian]

that's the best news i've heard yet!

i've got to ask a very stupid question, don't laugh...

gasket material? does it come like a rubber sheet and you cut out what you need? or more like a caulk/puddy that you sort of glue on?

just curious because this gasket seems to need to be countersunk.



i appreciate the advice!

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[rustech]

[quote name='Brian' date='Sep 27 2005, 07:46 AM']on a side note, the snap ring pliers that i bought are small and wimpy and just won't do the job on that huge snap ring for the thermostat.  anyone have a suggestion on how to find a good set?  that ring is huge!



thanks for any help.

[right][post="10357"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



So did you get the snapring out? How did you get the thermostat out without the snapring?



From whom did you order your thermostat?

What was the part # for the thermostat your ordered?

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[Brian]

rus - you ask more questions than i do! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



when i first did the coolant drain and looked for the thermostat to replace it, i discovered that there was never one in the car to begin with. i think that's why my problems are as bad as they are.

the inner seal that i'm trying to replace was melted all over the place on the housing where it fits. i scraped and pulled it off with my fingernails. it's a very, very difficult place to try and work. it's probably a good three inches back inside the coolant pump.

as far as the snap ring and the various other parts that accompany the tstat, they were all missing as well. so i'm starting from scratch.

i can say this, the snap ring pliers i have will in no way be tough enough to compress the snap ring to get it in the housing. i pinch them and the snap ring just springs right off the pliers. they need some kind of hook or something on the ends to hold the ring. plus, that ring is very stiff and my pliers aren't big enough to give me any leverage.

i just picked up a thermostat from the local autoparts store. i don't have a part number for it. i told them the make, model, and year and they sold me one. it fits fine. not sure the temp cutoff point. must be factory original specs.

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[rustech]

rus - you ask more questions than i do!

Yeah, sorry, I'm working on a conspiracy theory! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/tongue.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

i can say this, the snap ring pliers i have will in no way be tough enough to compress the snap ring to get it in the housing. i pinch them and the snap ring just springs right off the pliers. they need some kind of hook or something on the ends to hold the ring. plus, that ring is very stiff and my pliers aren't big enough to give me any leverage.

When I replaced mine, I also had to barb the tips of the circlip pliers to prevent slipping.



I find that the seal that slips on to the thermostat itself is not always sold as the proper thickness for our pumps. When you do get around to installing the thermostat with the seal and securing it with the circlip...make sure the thermostat does not wiggle in any way, otherwise you've been sold the wrong thickness.



Side question...Has anyone noticed that the thermostat does not make contact with the internal seal once installed. Why would they use a rubber seal that never seats with the thermostat?

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[BruceWard]

Avoiding the conspiracy theory all together, I found heavy duty circlip pliers at autozone for about $15 that were able able to compress the big circlip. Before going to autozone I spent over an hour trying to remove that damn thing.

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[sasilverbullet]

brian - I made the gasket to fit the the whole mating surface, not just the little ring.



Just go to pepboys or something like that and ask for some gasket material. They should have a bunch of thicknesses and types. Just get some that's about a dime thick and is a paper like material. Don't forget the silicone seal!

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[rustech]

Bruce, that's not really the conspiracy theory I'm working on, but thanks for the tip.



Distance in water pump from thermostat mating surface to internal seal: 1.390 inches.



Distance on thermostat from split seal over mounting edge to flow control disc fore surface is 1.295 inches.



Odd.





Per Sunset:

944.106.129.05 is a 944 thermostat with thin seal (wrong for "2.7l" pump) (2.5l?)



944.106.019.00 is a 944 thermostat with a thick seal (for 2.7l pump)



I don't know which is right for the 2.5l pump or whether there's a difference. The thermostats are identicle, the only difference is the seal.



The split mating seal we need for the 2.7l (maybe 2.5l) is 944.106.929.08, when you order a thermostat, make sure it's included.

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[Brian]

yep, that's the same part number i have for the split o-ring that goes around the edge of the tstat. fits like a glove.

there's also a metal washer that goes outside of that before the lock ring.

thank goodness for pet. makes me feel not quite as dum as i might otherwise!



please don't tell me that the inner ring doesn't even mate with the tstat! i will have waste a bunch of time on this project if it doesn't even seal up. not to mention about $10 for the part. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



i'll check for a pliers at autozone. thanks bruce. i feel better that i'm not the only one who had a hard time with that thing.

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[Greimann]

My memory is a little fuzzy when I changed the waterpump on Mr. Floss Doc's car, but I thought I remember the inner seal was intended to seal a bypass passage when the thermostat opened. So cold, it would not mate with the seal.

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[Brian]

the inner seal i was working with fit in a counterbore in the water pump that mates with the smaller diameter inner ring on the thermostat - the one that's spring loaded.



i just couldn't get it to fit. i got out my handy dremmel last night with the extension snake on it. still couldn't get it into the water pump. so i cleaned everything the best i could by hand and just stuck the thermostat in anyway. getting that darned snap ring in was a real bear, but got a lot easier when i dremmeled the end of the pliers i had. i ground the tips so that they pointed inward and then it worked great. now i have a tool if i ever need to change the thermostat again.

i know there are some threads on this question, but....

my coolant temp gauge now reads 8:30 (if it were a clock) all the time. engine comes up to temp in a minute or two and then is rock solid at that temp no matter what i drive like. does this sound right? also, now every time i stop the car, the fan runs for a minute or so. is this normal? almost never happened before. but then again, i never had a thermostat, either!

my plan long term is to have the water pump either cleaned out or replaced when i get my major 60k belt service done. i took the vanity cover off the inner belt area and noticed that the inner belts are at the end of their life span. once michigan winter kicks in, i'll have 'em switched out. anyone ever do this themself? tough job? i just didn't have the heart to try it last night!

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[Brian]

oiler over on .net figured out my problem.

i can't believe how simple this is!!!

the reason my new sealing ring didn't fit is that the old one was still in there.

the sealing ring is a metal piece coated with rubber. what i peeled off the water pump was the rubber around the metal ring. so the metal ring was still in there!!!!

holy crap, now all i have to do is pull out the metal ring and put the new one in. no biggie. i just need the tool to pull the old one out. then i'll be all set.

this does mean that i need to drain the coolant again, but at least i'll know that everything is okay.

i'm so relieved!

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[rustech]

[quote name='Greimann' date='Sep 28 2005, 06:56 AM']My memory is a little fuzzy when I changed the waterpump on Mr. Floss Doc's car, but I thought I remember the inner seal was intended to seal a bypass passage when the thermostat opened. So cold, it would not mate with the seal.

[right][post="10405"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Thanks, makes sense. I just put a thermostat in boiling water per Flash's advice to see precisely how it works. I was surprised to see the large coil contract, and the total length of the thermostat increase (which would make contact with the seal). Amazing that a 1/10 of an inch is all it allows to flow past when cold.

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