[Peter B]

I've got a new Head unit in and the sound is much improved. I really like the HD radio (Alpine BT149).



I want to install new speakers in my Coupe.



Here's the question. I bought a JL audio 5.25 inch speakers (VRs) with integrated tweeters to replace the door panels. They are 4 ohm speakers. Unfortunately, these are low in the door. I'd like to use the additional tweeter up higher to get a little added "brightness".



How best to do this? Should I just forget it?

Should I wire in the JL audio's, then split the signal to the existing crossover (parallel) to the tweeter. (Input to 5.25 speaker, parallel to crossover with the signal still attached to the tweeter).

With these JL Audio's, do I need a base blocker?

Do I need to replace the existing tweeters? They don't seem to be blown.



I've got a set of 6.5 inch JL Audio VR's for the back (will try Flash's speaker box mod). These have a remote tweeter that I'll put in the back next to the woofer.



Sort of related, I read an article on sound deadening. They recommended using the stick-on sound deadening material, like dynamat extreme with something like 25% coverage. The idea is like putting your finger on a surface of a drum. He adds that you then use a less expensive and thicker material to adsorb the sound. He recommended using Velcro to attach this. Any opinions on this? I've seen plenty of articles where the entire car becomes covered in Dynamat extreme.



Seems to me, that on a coupe, the back wheel wells and hatch generate the most noise. I'm thinking of using this 25% coverage rule and a thicker and less expensive material back there.



Thanks for advice.

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[ds968]

In my opinion Dynamat and Dynapad are worth their weight in gold in these cars. That new stereo will sound as if you're listening to music inside a cork wall recording studio .

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[flash]

while in theory using only 25% sounds like a good idea, in real world application, that doesn't work. the idea in that theory is to merely stop the resonating of the sheet metal. it does do some of that, but not nearly as effectively as covering a lot more. these cars resonate a LOT. you can demonstrate that by putting a home speaker on the outside of the car, at high volume, moving it around, and feeling the sheet metal on the inside of the car. you will find that it resonates anywhere there is no dynamat.

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[bombfactory]

Too much DynaMat is never a bad thing! With regards to the front speaker wiring, I'd encourage you to get 5.25" separates, so you can put the tweeter up in the stock tweeter location. You're not going to get great sound with a 2-way firing right at the side of your leg, but getting the tweeter up higher and forward will definitely help.



The 6.5" separates you are mounting in the rear will be fine, but will sound a little boomy if you haven't done the rear speaker foam-fill mod.

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[dry664]

As above, use as much dynamat as you can afford!! Im not convinced by the additonal foam blockers as they need to be very thick to make a difference



For the speakers, when you say 'remote tweeter' for the 6.5's I think you mean they are a component set? If so, do they come with a crossover? If they do then I would run fresh wiring to the fronts and use that crossover with the front coaxials, then replace the factory tweeter with the JL tweeter. Then in the back just use the 6.5 woofer. If you are using the factory wiring for the coaxials in the front then they are already being controlled by the factory crossover which may be why you are lacking 'brightness' (its probably filtering everything above 3000hz).

Hopefully your headunit is a good one and has some form of HPF/LPF control. And hopefully its got independent controls for front and back. If so I would look to set the front HPF as low as possible that the doors dont rattle (this is where the deadening comes in, will probably be somewhere around 60hz - aka your bass blocker) and the rear lpf to whatever sounds best to you (start at 2000hz and reduce. The lower you go the less volume but the better the bass will integrate with the fronts).

Using the JL crossover in the front would bypass the tweeter in the front coaxials. I wouldnt use the tweeter in the back because you really want the music to sound like its in front of you. If you have a JL tweeter (good) behind you and a factory (20 years old and bad) tweeter in front of you its going to sound like a bit of a mess.



Got it? :-)



[quote name='bombfactory' timestamp='1390326086' post='154482']

.....but will sound a little boomy if you haven't done the rear speaker foam-fill mod.

[/quote]



Any alternatives to expanding foam?

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[bombfactory]

I haven't done the foam mod yet and am also wondering if there is a 'reversible alternative' to the expanding foam. What if down the road I need some paintless dent removal in that area? Flash, what say you?

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[flash]

re: tweeters - the OEM tweeters don't handle much power. i would not incorporate them into a system with an external amp, which is what you would need with the JLs. the power from a deck is not enough.



re: JL choices - i would run the C3650 and the C3525. the VR series don't go low enough. the C3s have separate tweeters that can also be installed concentrically. i would put the tweeters int he OEM location in the front, and concentric in the rear. i would definitely not run only a woofer in the rear if you like music with spacial spreading.



re: reversible alternative - no.



re: paintless dent removal - this is a problem

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[Bulti]

...Got it? :-)



Dry, that's funny, I could swear there isn't a single word of English in that entire post.... And my brain starts to hurt again.

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[dry664]

:-)

Any chance you can post a picture of all your gear?

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[quick968]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1390328718' post='154486']

re: reversible alternative - no.



re: paintless dent removal - this is a problem

[/quote]



Flash have you considered the "bagging" method of foam filling? It's how they send large bulky items like exhausts now days. You do it in three steps or stages to fill any given compartment/space using any sealable bag, ziploc's work ok, but mylar balloons from the party supply store work best, you need to make sure the expanding foam isn't going to chemically react and melt the bag. Use one bag sized appropriately, stuffed down in there to fill the lower section, then fill the bag with foam, let "set" till firm. Take another bag and fill the middle, and finally a third bag to fill the upper section of the space. After it's all firm, you can remove later easily because the foam is not touching sheet metal, it's contained in the bag. Yank out the center bag to give space, then the top or bottom foam filled bags can be wiggled out. No permanent foam. I'm not a fan of the expanding urethane foams in direct contact with sheet metal, as outside temps change, any moisture condenses but is completely trapped, so rust becomes an issue over time. With the bag method, not a problem.



Cheers

Mikey

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[flash]

yeah - tried that, because i was worried about deformation. not any easy way to get it out of there once it's in. also, due to the shape of the compartment, it really doesn't squirt into the nooks and crannies with a bag, so you don't quite get the same seal.



the body is fully galvanized, so it should not rust.

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[quick968]

Another option I've been using on my cars over the years is from CAE, Cascade Audio Engineering. They are local to me here in Oregon, and they compete directly with Dynomat etc.



www.cascadeaudio.com



For the problem in question, I love their spray on/paint on product VB-1X. It works REALLY well to damp out resonance on outer sheet metal.



http://cascadeaudio.com/car_noise_control/vb_1x.htm



CAE has lots of different products for solving all sorts of audio problems. Give em a whirl.



Cheers

Mikey

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[flash]

creates friction??? i'd have to see proof of that, and moreover proof that this reduces resonance and cabin noise. what needs to happen is energy reduced and/or dissipated, not created.



"creates an impedance mismatch"??? surely they are not suggesting they are altering the speaker impedance. what they heck do they mean?



i like the idea of being able to spray it in, but i would want to see charts showing the noise reduction. i've compared other products, and dynamat extreme did the best.



might be a good prep for prior to dynamat though, assuming it works at all.

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[Peter B]

Thanks for advice. I got it :-)



When in doubt add dynamat. How much dynamat does it take for a coupe? Where does it need to go?



1) Front doors

2) Rear panel (speaker enclosure)



How about the back part under the hatch?



3) Rear wheel wells? all of it?

4) Spare tire well?

5) Under the carpet in the back hatch?

6) Under the carpet up front?

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[quick968]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1390402051' post='154506']

creates friction??? i'd have to see proof of that, and moreover proof that this reduces resonance and cabin noise. what needs to happen is energy reduced and/or dissipated, not created.



"creates an impedance mismatch"??? surely they are not suggesting they are altering the speaker impedance. what they heck do they mean?



i like the idea of being able to spray it in, but i would want to see charts showing the noise reduction. i've compared other products, and dynamat extreme did the best.



might be a good prep for prior to dynamat though, assuming it works at all.

[/quote]



The vibration/resonance energy IS dissipated, as low level heat. Very low level. That heat is just the thermodynamic manifestation of the friction created by the silica and mica fibers embedded in the matrix rubbing against each other. They resist moving, and the resonance is damped out. This is the same principle used by ALL of this class of dampeners, the asphalt based stick on sheets the OEM's use. I guess the guys at CAE got a little carried away with the description.



As for impedance mismatch, no, they are not talking about speaker electrical impedance 4ohm/2ohm. They are talking about decoupling the sheet metal resonance from the speaker's resonance, which they claim gives 1-1.5db improvement in sound levels.



The stuff does work, it works very well. If you poke around their web site, they have specs on most all their products, they are not shy about putting their various products against anything Dynamat has to offer. They know exactly who the competition is.



For the VB-1X, the specs are here:

http://cascadeaudio.com/automotive_audio...101612.pdf



Not saying dynamat doesn't work well, there's a reason they are in every stereo store around. Just suggesting it's not the only game in town, and "perhaps" not the best. I've been very happy with using the VB-1X, and the VB3 on the floors. It uses a lead septum sandwiched between neoprene foam, and it completely blocks road/tire noise. I've also used their Deflex pads behind speakers whicj seems to make a noticeable improvement. Anyway, just wanted to explain it a bit.



Cheers

MIkey

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[dry664]

[quote name='Peter B' timestamp='1390450272' post='154529']

Thanks for advice. I got it :-)



When in doubt add dynamat. How much dynamat does it take for a coupe? Where does it need to go?



1) Front doors

2) Rear panel (speaker enclosure)



How about the back part under the hatch?



3) Rear wheel wells? all of it?

4) Spare tire well?

5) Under the carpet in the back hatch?

6) Under the carpet up front?

[/quote]



So far Ive used 38 sq ft!! And I know that if I added more it would make a significant difference.

Definitely do the following:

1. Spare wheel well

2. Under the carpet in the back hatch

3. Inner skin of doors

4. Inner skin of rear speaker panel and tops of rear arches



Use as much as you want on outer skin of doors and rear speaker panel bearing in you might want access to repair parking dings.

(you've probably used 36sq ft already)



Sealing doors makes a huge difference but restricts access to window mech, locks etc

If you are planning on using an amp, its worth sorting rattles in the window mech and locks. You can apply dynamat here as well.



I wouldnt worry about under carpets because they are a pig to remove and the mat is better used elsewhere. When I get round to changing headliner I will use mat on the roof.



I havent applied anything to rear quarters but would think theres improvement to be had there as well.



One other thing that will make a big difference is replacing the rear speaker mount with a MDF (or similar) baffle. The factory mount doesnt seal around the edges so all that noise from the wheel well comes out right next to the speaker.



Sound is a funny thing though. Youre sort of chasing a moving target because the more you remove road noise the more sensitive your hearing becomes. I bet if i measured with a dB meter I have reduced road noise by 50% but it only sounds a bit quieter to me. In fact Ive lowered the noise so much in the front cabin that now all the noise is noticeably coming from the rear. Lowering that noise floor makes a huge difference to the stereo.

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[flash]

it typically takes the large box with 9 sheets in it



re: rear chamber mounting plate. i have been successful at caulking that and sealing it. a lot easier than a baffle. you could also spread dynamat over the plate.



as for the spray stuff, i'll poke around the site and see what data they have. i've used other spray stuff before, and had some limited success. i was taking issue with the way they described what the material did. dynamat works largely by adding mass, which makes the sheet metal harder to move, and the elastic nature tends to add as a "shock absorber" further making it harder to move. as much as they would like you to believe that there is some magical hi-tech interaction occurring, this is why the resonance is reduced. the old school way was lead sheets, and is still the most effective. i have a hard time imagining being able to apply enough mass with a spray to be very effective. it might help with mid-range frequencies, but i am really more concerned with those below 300hz

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[dry664]

I think a lot of modern cars use a sprayed on foam? That stuff Mikey's posted above seems to be more like a paint. It does sound like witchcraft to me but then again Im no physicst!

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[dry664]

[quote name='flash' timestamp='1390488553' post='154540']re: rear chamber mounting plate. i have been successful at caulking that and sealing it. a lot easier than a baffle. you could also spread dynamat over the plate. [/quote]



Note sure a car audio 6.5 fits in the mounting plate? I think the factory Nokia driver is of home audio origin. I made an MDF baffle to mount my 6.5" JL C2 coaxials.....but I just have them faded out (waste of money). I'm just running fronts amped as I like the way it sounds better.

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[flash]

yup - no sweat. fit fine. done a couple of them now. just ignore the mounting holes in the car, and make new ones with self drilling and tapping screws



the C2s don't go nearly low enough for my tastes either. the C3-650s go down to 48hz, and they actually get there. i just did a car with those, with the tweeter mounted concentrically, and the rear enclosure and full dynamat. sounds really good.

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