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Setting Up A Track Spring Package
#21

[quote name='Darth Vadar' post='30177' date='Jan 24 2007, 10:55 PM']Well, from what I have gathered, Porsche never intended the 968's to run w/o the T bars, and the stock rear shock mounting points are simply not up to the task of supporting the entire suspension load with Coilovers only. Of course, for the full out caged racers, there are complete rear suspension replacement setups, BUT, that is not what most of us are going for... and, in fact, the Porsche factory racers kept the T Bars and just added on the appropriate Coilovers, so that would seem the best way to go for a street / track combo car.



The challenge is to get the right combo of coil springs, shocks and ride height with the T Bars still in place... pull the T Bars, and you only have to deal with 2 variables, vs 3...



That said, there are plenty of folks (like Pete at RSBarn) who have gone thru the process of elimination and sorted the variables sufficiently, that the rest of us can get pretty close to "Right On" out of the box... depending of course on where we are starting from! But that is what keeps it interesting...[/quote]



So in other words it's a matter of eliminating that 3rd variable for setting up a good handling suspension? Makes sense, but sound it may be more trouble than it's worth. You also make a VERY good point that Porsche didn't remove the T bars on the factory racecars.
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#22

Yep... that's about it!



Of course, my "Real World" Suspension setup experience is limited to the factory M030 Suspension on a 951... I tried a variety of settings on the adjustable Koni's, and had lowered the overall ride height about 1.5 inches all around. The car was still streetable, and in fact I made a 1,600 mile trip in it from Florida to Michigan, but there were sections of I 65 that I would rather forget!!!



And yet, the car did not handle as well as I thought it should, given the "stiffness" of the Koni's... now, in retrospect, I think the Koni's were probably to blame.



As stated above the "Old" technology shocks were either "Firm", or "Too Hard"... I may find this to be true of the Bilstein Escort Cups as well.. just need to try and see how they feel to me. I do agree that something like the Leda's, Bilstein PSS9's (if they made a set for our cars!) or the KW's would most likely be the better way to go, IF money was not a factor... I just don't think I will see the value of them for the few track days that I would use them, and really am looking for a "tight" street package, which I suspect, is what the majority of us are looking for!



Of course, the full out Racers can virtually lock their suspensions down, and, if they run on decent tracks, tighter equals faster! But, for the rest of us, a locked suspension will shake our cars apart in 100 miles of street driving. Not to mention what it will do to our fillings!



So, you pays your money and takes your pick! Just trying to get the "Pick" as close to right on the first pass as possible!
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#23

i have heard that the shock mounts cannot handle the full load, but so far, i have not seen any signs of this - i know the lower one is a problem if you don't use karl's adaptor - this is supposed to solve that problem, and it is only from people that have not used the adaptor that i heard there were problems



the upper mount may require an additional surface welded to it, as it is only welded into the sheet metal, and i will probably do that just to be safe, but so far there are no signs of any obrounding of the hole



the other advantage of keeping torsion bars in there is that you can then use rubber shock bushings



in a full coilover, you must use spherical bearings, as rubber will not handle the full load - this results in rattles and noises in the passenger compartment that would not make everyone happy - i am learning to live with it, but in hindsight, may have gone another route if i knew this ahead of time



p.s. - after 6 sets of springs, i have now found the absolute maximum spring rates for the yellow koni struts and the carrera shocks - both are definitely too stiff for street comfort - i was hoping to be able to tolerate these springs, knowing they were as stiff as thes shocks and struts could handle, but it is just not fun at low speeds anymore - i'm going back down a bit to regain some driveability - it is my weekend car after all
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#24

It is good to know that so far you haven't seen any damage to the rear body mounts w/o the T Bars! I wondered about that!



Yes, I wanted to keep the rubber bushings for the rear shock mounts, to minimize noise intrusion for the few road miles I will run...



The compromise is never the best choice, but I think it will work for my needs! Keep you posted!
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#25

this car is all about compromise, so perhaps it is the best choice indeed - i'm playing with it, seeking the edge of the envelope, but i'm a lot more tolerant of some things than many others, and less tolerant than some



suspension choices are like car colors - everybody has a different idea of what's the best
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#26

Bob, if you can get a ride in someone's car that has the KW's you should. You will see that you can have your cake and eat it too.
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#27

lol - i'll be right over



i'm not surprised that somebody came up with something better - it has been 30 years since that design after all - i may end up changing yet - who knows? obviously i'm not opposed to switching stuff out



we'll see how she is with the new swaybars i'm having made



but, more than likely, i will let the street car be the street car, and the race car be the race car - i'm not a fan of "dual purpose" cars - something always suffers, and it usually shows up on the track at exactly the wrong moment
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#28

Yes that is the constant thought when you create a dual purpose car. You get closer and closer to the edge of just making it a racer but for me I can't afford to do this. Especially after the amounts I've been spending lately!! It is going to be faster than some racers though which will be interesting. Time to stand up and wave bye bye to the GT3's I hope.
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#29

for me it's a long entangled problem



where do i keep the race car?

how do i get it there?



hmmm - get a trailer



ok - great - that would take care of 1 and 2 - now, where do i keep the trailer?
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#30

Yes storage and transport are some of the 'real world' issues that would need to be catered for. Still it would be fun to have a cheap 'trailer car'. Having said that I bet we could just drive it to the track early Sunday mornings and not be pulled over but that's just more of a silly challenge than anything. Disregard that last idea although if I had to drive to the track on slicks I would risk it. Not good for the tyres but I said 'If I had to'.
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#31

333pg333 - I'd like to know a little more detail about your KW setup. I'll PM you with my e-mail adress and some specifics. Thanks in advance!
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#32

[quote name='jpk' post='30390' date='Jan 30 2007, 05:00 PM']333pg333 - I'd like to know a little more detail about your KW setup. I'll PM you with my e-mail adress and some specifics. Thanks in advance![/quote]

Email sent...
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#33

This is going to be a very long post to provide anyone and everyone with enough information to keep them on google for a week, as I did.



I have made many posts on Rennlist regarding this matter. I have been through three different setups on my personal 968, and have driven another couple dozen in 944's. I will address a few issues that I saw in this post based on my education from many people, including Koni and Bilstein direct.



First issue that a lot of vendors (nearly all Porsche vendors) will tell you is that the Escorts are still good because shock technology has not changed since their creation in the 80's. Unfortunately this is far but true, shocks have leaped and bound since the creation of the turbo cup shocks. Different valving techniques (in order to better use both progressive and digressive valving), better material, more adjustability, more options, etc... have all changed since the 80's. There are advantages to the Escorts though - for one the price. There is really no other coilover in the price range without doing a fab of parts such as the Paragon c/o kit on stock koni's, which still doesn't give you rear adjustability. Second is the inverted Bilstein design was way ahead of its time in the 80's, and is on par with today's technology. Downsides - the inverted bilstein has no internal bump stocks, as evident by my destroyed shock. When you max out your suspension (maybe jumping over other cars), or in my case when the seals inside the strut blow, the force is transmitted into the upper mount and in my case snapped it right off. The other bad side about the bilsteins is there is no user adjustability...what you get is what you get (more on this later). In order to get adjustment if persay your compression is too high for your setup, or rebound is too much, you have to ship your shock out for a 4-6week turn around, and about $150 total per shock. $75/shock to rebuild, plus parts which add up. In turn you have to trust that what vendor x sells you is what you need on your car, and unfortunately this isn't the case.



Every car on this forum is different - different tires, different weights, different drivers, etc... Thus every suspension is going to be different. To further add to the complications you have road surfaces (whether street or track, or a mix of both), expected mileage, and more. You wouldn't want a full out race suspension that has a life span of 5000 miles on your 12,000 mile a year daily driver. It just wouldn't make sense having to rebuild them three times in one year. All these make it impossible for someone to diagnose and build a suspension for you over the phone. This is where adjustability comes into play, and is the main reason I dislike the Escorts. They give you the ability to adjust your corner balance but that is all. Single adjustable (rebound only) such as the Koni Yellows, 8610, 30-series, some exotic bilsteins, and certain Penskes give you the ability to dial in your rebound, or the force at which the shock returns from compressed to extended. The reason why they give you rebound over compression is rebound will have a more dramatic effect on feel and response than compression; cost may play an issue as well but I am unsure of that. With this you can dial in your compression with measurements and weights, forward the information to your builder, and you will have a close setup. Typically flaws in compression can be adjusted with rebound, or hidden with rebound. Then you have double/triple/4-way adjustable struts which in most cases will double your investment or more. All of the 2/3/4-way adjustable struts adjust based on the principle of double adjustables only, rebound and compression. Many manufactures (japanese shock companies) build compression and rebound to adjust together, 50/50 or something in that range. Technically not truely double adjustable, but because of the reading they can sell it as that. True double adjustable shocks will adjust compression and rebound independently, or close to it (very hard to make them completely independent without remote resevoirs). Shocks such as these would be Koni 3012, 8212, 2812/17, KW 2-way race, Penske doubles, Ohlins 36 series, and possibly Leda double adjustables if you want to fetch out really far. 3 and 4-way adjustable shocks will net you a significant higher entrance cost, but the outcome will be invaluable to a racer. Rebound always stays independent, while compression is divided into high speed (1-3" of shock travel) and low speed (3-12") giving you better adjustment to road surfaces. Many of these also have the ability to have remote resevoirs giving your adjust on the fly ability.



What else is their to consider? Well sway bars! There was a question proposed in regards to sway bars whether the M030's are best. Again, this is solely based on a person by person basis. Sway bars offer a very linear form of reistance on the strut (or control arm in the 968's case). Size will greatly affect how the car handles based on what suspension you are running. There is a significant difference between the M030 19mm rear and the Weltmeister 22mm rear. Effective springing in the rear will change as well. A sway bar is probably the most linear form of resistance on the wheel/tire/suspension. Adding more will only help to a point where you start having so much resistance you lose traction by lifting wheels. I have found on my car that with the 19mm rear bar I prefer a rear biased suspension, such as 400/600 and with the Weltmeister 22mm I prefer a front bias, but not by much 450/400. This also adds in another adjustment that needs to be taken into account when purchasing shocks.



What else? Bushings are a big part a lot of people miss. You can NOT reliably remove the rear torsion bars without putting in delrin or better bushings. The suspension shifts unbelievably bad and puts an unmeasureable amount of stress on the rear glass and interior parts. Ask me how I know! You are removing a very critical component and replacing it with something less reliable, but more adjustable. I prefer t-bar less to save about $300 every corner balance, but to each their own. Other bushings such as control arm and other joints are optional, but the torsion tube bushings is critical. Its a good modification regardless if you are removing the bars or not, makes them much more responsive.



So why all this crap above in regards to setups and such? In a matter of a week on the phone, I found so much BS and marketing within the Porsche vendor community than anything I have ever seen before. There is one vendor who has their feet on the ground, but the typical ones speak of have either never tried to update technology or for some reason feel 80's technology is better. Its something to consider when laying down the benjamins on a suspension. I would be happy to answer any direct questions, and add more information where needed, but I would definantly reccommend doing a little research before dropping the $$$!



Wes
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#34

Wes: Sounds like you have done your homework, esp. if a person is going to track the 968 most of the time. Since I asked the original question, I have decided to go with: Bilstein Escort Cups, Eibach 8" x 2.25" x 550 front and 350 rear Coils, Racer's Edge Camber Plates, keep the Torsion Bars, change to M030 front and rear Anti Roll Bars, go to delrin bushings, and use Heim jointed Drop Links on the rear Bar. All this on a non M030 6 speed Coupe, used for the occasional Auto-X and DE Events, and a few touring road miles. Price was a significant consideration, so any setup more expensive than the Escorts was not considered. Once I have everything buttoned up, I intend to test the setup on a local skid pad. I will be happy to report on observable results, such as understeer and oversteer, and ride harshness under various conditions. If I can get my hands on a G meter, I can get a bit more scientific in my analysis.



Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread... now on to the results!
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#35

i may have asked this and spaced - where are you? i have one
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#36

You will still find that even though your main use is for the track, the Escorts will not be as efficient as more recently valved shocks in hitting/riding kerbs. They will tend to unsettle the car more, but I guess it may all come down to your budget?
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#37

Flash: You have a PM...



Yep, it all came down to budget....



I was able to score the Bilsteins, Eibachs and Racer's Edge misc. components (except for the Camber Plates) for less than $1,400.00...

Everything else I looked at was in excess of $2,400.00... some significantly so... for an occassional "Fun" car, I just couldn't justify that big a difference in cost... Guess I will have to concentrate on not hitting curbs and such! :>))
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#38

Uuugh, looks like there is a lot to consider when getting new suspension <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

But you say that you want occasional DE and AutoX events on your car? Hmm, I'm considering the same. I'll talk to the guy at the local shop and see what he recommends, he has done quite a few suspension upgrades on 944s and 968s. Though I would definitely like to get something adjustable: low for the track, normal for the roads. I guess the whole thing with double adjustable versus single adjustable matters more for the track? And when you have more experience in such things. Give me a car with either and I'm sure I'd be blissfully happy knowing it's not stock, heh



It is an informative post however, and now I have some model numbers I can refer to <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />
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#39

I thought I would add a little more information now that I have a little time. Previous post was in an awefully boring Astronomy class and I only had 50 minutes.



I didn't mean to come across that Escorts were total crap...they aren't. They are a great coil over at the price point, especially if you get them used or discounted. They just aren't up to the task of modern coil overs. By not up to the task I mean they are not as advanced. In my experience with 600/180 and 545/212 over the counter setup is as follows - original feeling was superior, especially with the 400/450lb springs. I got a chance to track my car and started to see the problems. My setup was the Escorts, Hyperco 400/450lb springs, M030 bars with OEM bushings, OEM rear bushings, no torsion bars (I was sold the car with Racers Edge delrin torsion plate bushings, banana bushings, etc which was all a lie, and unfortunately these were things that the PPI couldn't see). With the M030 rear bar set at middle (neutral setting) the car had decent turn in with pronounced power-on understeer. This was before I knew much about shocks/springs so the first thing I did was put the M030 bar on the stiffest (furtherest from the end) setting. Car had worse turn in, nearly the same power-on understeer, and really little difference from the peanut gallery. Next step under the reccomendation of many vendors who I spoke with was that my springing was off. Between several vendors I was told rates from 500/400 to 300/600. Everyone has their own 'recipe' for the Escort setup. I kept my 400/450lb springs and ordered some 550lb springs to play with, since the entire setup uses 8" 2.25" springs. With my setup, 550/450 did nothing but make the car all but a push pig. My car was corner balanced at 50/50 prior to the springing change, so IMO this made a very front biased suspension. I went to 550lb springs in the rear and it made the car much more lively. Now I was on 400/550, M030 full stiff, still under the impression I had solid bushings. Car was now much more neutral....for about a week. Then I hit a very small bump and the top of the strut snapped off. I can't really say much about this, only pictures do justice.

[Image: M2.jpg]

[Image: IMG_0806.jpg]



This won't happen to everyone, infact its a rare case. But it has happened, and when you call Bilstein and tell them about it before you finish explaining they know what has happened...so it must happen more often then people talk about.



So I started to do a ton of research. I put a friends Koni setup with Paragon coilover kit for the mean time while I sorted out what I was going to do. This is when I started with small phone calls which later became hours and hours long phone calls, which eventually became hour long international phone calls (one of those intrinsic costs I never added into the cost of my suspension setup). Once you start to get the deeper and deeper you realize that no one gets into suspension tuning because its so complicated. Bobby Archer spent over a million dollars and five years of research before he mastered the Dodge Viper ACR package suspension (Koni 2812's, but valved and specified by Bobby Archer Racing). You think any of the main Porsche vendors have the funds to do this kind of R&D...not likely. Bobby Archer will openly tell you his worst mistake was spending all of his time and money on suspensions and not performance like most people do. This is why so many vendors push pre-made kits like Bilstein Escorts, PSS9's, Leda's, etc... all of the basic R&D is done. Power is measurable by numbers, a dynomometer to be exact. What is suspension measured with? Imaginary numbers that are created to catagorize cars; skidpad, slalom, etc... so many variables that these are only numbers used to catagorized. What does show is performance on a track, time removed per lap...then again this can have just as many variables. Thus no one invests time nor money in developing a kit that is tuned for our cars.



So as I talked/shopped around I started to get into what makes a $1000 suspension different from a $5000 suspension. Well the simplest answer to the question is the quality of the parts. Steel vs. stainless, alumimum vs steel, welded coil over sleeves or threaded bodies, etc... What makes the differences - well steel rusts, plain and simple. See early Leda's (possibly modern Leda's). Many manufactures get around this by 'coating' steel, or painting it. Still is going to rust eventually, although there is a damper put on the time frame (i.e. you may not see it in YOUR ownership). Aluminum is the lightest, doesn't rust, and is one of the easiest to work with, but at a cost. Typically aluminum doubles the cost of a shock. Next are the internal parts of a shock - valves, tubes, oil or nitrogen, adjustable or non, life span, etc... Your over the counter shock uses very durable parts with conservative valving to make the shock last for a ton of miles. Custom shocks use more exotic valving techniques, very high stress parts, and add in more things to break. The benefit is a better shock; the downside is a short life span. These are the basics that make a shock more expensive than others. Typically as more exotic parts are used, more adjustment is added.



Adjustment - man this is my favorite part. This is where I have to put my boots on to wade through the crapcreek. My favorite are the 36-way adjustable japanese coil overs. It takes me a while, and honestly I still don't think I have it figured out, but here is my best guess. Each shock is 4-position adjustable, which adjusts compression and rebound 50/50 (hopefully), so (4X2)4 = 32, but that still leaves 4 more adjustments...whatever I am already lost. So as I said in my previous post you have none, single, double, triple, and sometimes 4-way adjustable shocks. All adjustable shocks have atleast rebound, doubles add in compression, 3-ways split up compression, and 4-ways I am not completely sure, but I think it adds in the adjustability of nitrogen tuning. The cost of adjustable shocks depends highly on how it is adjustable - early Koni's (pre-M030) had to be adjusted by compressing the shock and turning it, then later ones were able to be adjusted on the fly. So lets take two shocks for instant that are similar in pictures and specs, but in reality are completely different; Koni 3012 and 2812. Both are double adjustable, aluminum, mono-tube (making them able to mount invertably) and made my Koni. One is $550 and the other is $1100...each. To the naked eye and the naked buyer there would be no difference; yet there is. The 3012 requires the shock to be completely removed so it can be at full extension to adjust compression. Rebound is adjustable on the fly. Also there is the fact that the adjusting mechanisms are not as precise so when you adjust compression two turns (whatever value that may be), your adjusting rebound as well. What if you didn't want to adjust your rebound though? See most shocks that claim independent double adjustability aren't...closer to 90% double adjustability. The only way to find this out is via shock dyno's which most don't have access to, so the marketing wins again. The 2812 offers the same aluminum mono-tube structure as the 3012, but adds in easily accessable on the fly double adjustability. Furthermore its adjustments are made on a specific user defined pattern (7 clicks) so precise tuning can be had. Also because of the rod adjusting mechanism (also used by Advanced Design and Ohlins), the shock can obtain nearly 99.9% independent compression and rebound adjustments. This is what makes the difference between a $500 and a $1000 shock. Unfortunately the Escorts have none of this!



So why pay for this tuning ability - well seconds off your lap times of course. In my previous post we spoke about the fact that road conditions are never the same, tracks are never the same speed (some short and tight, some long and straight, some fast and narrow, etc..), tires wear out (which has a DRASTIC effect on handling), etc... all these are variables that one setup can not adjust to...no matter how much you pay. Having on the fly adjustability gives you the option to adjust for temperatures, tracks, competition, confidence, etc... This is an invaluable tool to a racer, or even a weekend educator/learner. Being able to adjust to your driving style inspires confidence which will inturn lead to faster times (until you have a few off track excursions because of over-confidence).



But what if you don't have $4000 to drop on coil overs...well thats gravy too. You can have your cake and eat it too because in the ends its what you want and what you are going to use your suspension for. The Escorts make a great feeling setup for the street/occasional track setup. Any driver that can hit 7/10th of the cars performance will quickly realize the faults though - way too much rebound and compression - 525/160 would be much closer to usable valving. There are other options as well - Koni 8611 double adjustable front inserts with Paragon's coil over kit and Koni 3012's in the rear would be about $1900 and be leaps/bounds ahead of the escorts provided you did a little tuning. KW V3's at $2500 retail would be miles ahead, and I have heard rumors of being able to get a setup for a hair above $2000.



A few more tidbits about 968 suspension while we are on the subject - camber plates - in all honesty they are not needed. There is so much adjustment from the factory that they are all but useless in the most literal form. BUT it makes the adjustments so much easier and if you choose to track the car they add a significant amount of extra camber - up to 4 degree's. Does the fact that the RE plates are the only ones available that keep the stock height matter? IMO not really, as anyone getting camber plates will most likely be on coil overs and can adjust that out. The downside is by adjusting this out your are using some of your shock travel. Worth considering over .01 seconds on a lap, but I doubt there will be a difference.



What about the rear mounts - I heard they can fail - The parts in question are the thin sheet metal double shear upper mount and the single sheer lower mount. Facts~ The factory uses grade 8.8 14mmX80mm bolts to secure the stock rear shock in. This shock does not see much force so in factory form it will never fail. In fact this bolt is strong enough that it could handle any coil over considering its anchored in over an inch. The upper mount is only welded sheet metal with washer type reinforcements. The fact is though that this mount rarely sees movement or force as its only a pivot point. The double shear design makes it strong enough to handle about any force pushing upwards. The lower mount is the problem though if your running monoball (spherical bearing) mounts. First they are about 1/2 the width of the stock shock mount; second they are 1/2" ID and the stock bolt is 14mm, so your 1.3mm too large, and third 1/2" does not fit into a 14mm socket. So what fixes this delima - well RE was the first to the market with a double double bolt. They are readily available if you choose to shop around, but you may need to buy the RE parts to get the sizes right unless you just want to guess. Essentially what a double double bolt does is use a 14mm base bolt that is tapped on the inside of it. As a bolt this is good for no torque, in fact it isn't even graded. The inner tapping is for a 1/2" so now you have made up for the distance due to the narrower bearing. When these two bolts are bolted within each other the gradless 14mm bolt becomes at a minumum of a grade 8.8, typically more though. Makes a VERY strong bolt that also makes the strut fit. The funny part is that these bolts aren't used to make a 1/2" ID bearing fit into a 14mm socket, but are made for reinforcing 14mm bolts that need to be stronger than grade 8.8. So how much can these bolts take...well a lot. The mechanical engineering that I spoke with about these bolts told me that a high grade double double is nearly unbreakable. They are used in the most extreme of instances when the strongest bolts are needed. Karl told me he has tested them to 850lbs/in, so atleast that much. So are the parts worth $150? Of course not, they are worth about $65 it costs to order them from any bolt catalog...but your paying for the correct sizes, torque instructions, etc... so if I were to do it again I would purchase the same $150 RE kit before trying to fab something of my own.



A couple of good readings - http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/sh...ber_shock_dyno/

http://www.bimmerhaus.com/tech/shocktuningTN.html



Bedtime,



Wes
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#40

Renalicious -



I figured typing directly would be faster than you looking for what you want in my post. There is no setup that will be wrong for you. Infact you would probably really enjoy the escorts for your use. KW V3's would give you a lot more for only marginally more money. Shock adjustability is more advanced than most want to get into, but here is another look at it - rather than for tuning what about the ability to have a street and a tracking valving setup all on the same shock. I would definantly reccomend the Escorts for your bottom line, KW V3's for your premium, and either converted double adjustable M030's or 8611 inserts over 3012 rear shocks. Also keep in mind that you have a 1/2" up and down adjustability on the rear spring plate to lower/raise the car if you want to do torsion bars (which also feel very nice) and something like the paragon kit in the front.



Wes
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