[Eric_K]

Jeez Wes, your halfway to a book. Clearly, there are better shocks on the market than the Bilsteins. There is lots of good stuff out there. But, the Bilsteins are good quality and hard to beat for the price. They are proven and have worked for a lot of people. I've had the same set for seven years w/o an issue. I think your rebuild price was high too. My bill was just over 400 for all 4 and that included changing both ends of the rears to sphericals. They are not adjustable and that is a negative, but a good setup will work in a majority of situations. Porsche is delivering new 997 GT3 Cups with non adjustable shocks - go figure.

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[whakiewes]

Eric,



My bill was $75 service fee for all four shocks, $45 shipping them to California from NC, roughtly $20 in parts per shock, so about $100/per shock. So still not too bad, but there is the 4-week downtime (of course if your solely racing this isn't an issue as you have several months without racing regardless). I do think at the price, especially if you can get a discount, the Escorts are a good value - it bolts on, typically includes everything you need, and you CAN get a warranty on the parts through some vendors. Once you feel very nice shocks like Ohlins 46 series, Koni 2817/12 combo, etc... you will see what all the hype is about. Reminds me of high school where everyone was telling me how good it felt to be high and drunk...so eventually I had to give in <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />!



You can correct me if I am wrong, but Cup rules allow swaping of shocks. The Ohlins 36HMRC's that came on 996 Cups were good shocks, but really they would make better street shocks than race shocks. Most Cup racers I know (which isn't many so thats why I say you can correct me) were on Moton's, upgraded Ohlins, or Penskes. So my idea would be Porsche went with the cheaper shocks because most users will upgrade regardless...probably even if it came out with full Penskes, and/or they are trying to make the series even MORE competitive by making the only adjustments camber/toe/caster and height.



Wes

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[Eric_K]

Wes- I've driven a 944 race car with Motons. It felt great. But they are 3X the price (but not 3X better). If I had the money I would definitely move to a high end shock though. Tires, brakes, gas & entry fees eat all of my money. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> To carry on your analogy: you can prefer expensive wine to cheap beer but you can still have a good time with either.



Yes, I bet the shocks are the first things changed if allowed by the rules. Some rule sets require "as delivered by the factory". I don't know Porsche's thinking but I'm sure it wasn't to save the buyer a few bucks.

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[whakiewes]

I have never been on a set of Motons that I really enjoyed. The Clubsport package felt good in a Viper I rode in, but the race setups have always left me something to gain; of course I have/had no idea what specs they were running, etc... I agree that you can have as much fun with Escorts as others, especially if you are running for mere enjoyment versus money, but I can tell you the adjustment factor is an invaluable tuning tool if you konw how to use it correctly. My biggest complaint with inverted Leda's and Bilsteins is that they don't offer internal bump stops. With frequent rebuilds and no serious off road events there would probably not be an issue, but I can tell you when the shock breaks you won't be happy.



I too would be curious as to Porsches decision, but when I was refering to saving money I wasn't refering to the end user, but Porsche itself. If most owners are going to change the shocks out regardless (which I think you need to to be competitive) and everyone wants different setups, why invest in an already expensive setup. The Ohlins 36HMRC's retail for some $800/each for shocks that are the equivalent to $3-500 Koni's, $5-700 KW's, etc... It just doesn't make sense and it seems the Porsche Motorsport is the only division of Porsche that actually takes user feedback seriously.



Wes

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[Eric_K]

especially if you are running for mere enjoyment versus money

Well, I'll tell you, I'm approaching 4 digits in lifetime race winnings! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[mike]

[quote name='Eric_K' post='31056' date='Feb 16 2007, 12:20 PM']Well, I'll tell you, I'm approaching 4 digits in lifetime race winnings! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />[/quote]





I'm sure you've probably heard this quote:



"If you want to make small fortune in racing...start with a large one". <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/laugh.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



mike

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[Renalicious]

[quote name='333pg333' post='30180' date='Jan 24 2007, 09:45 PM']If I was deleting the t-bars I would be very careful what suspension I got. Having said that the Porsche cup cars ran with t-bars and unless you planned on changing or playing with a bunch of springs then I don't really see the need to delete? My impression of the Bilsteins escort cups is that they are an uncompliant valved shock. I would seriously research the brand and their characteristics, looking for something that offered you an up to date modern designed system. I will harp on about the KW's as they are exactly this, and their use of the bypass valving allows you to ride over irregularities without unsettling the car. Not like the older systems that were either hard or soft so to speak. You can have your cake and eat it, just make sure of the recipe![/quote]



Wes, thanks for the reply, I think I missed it before (Doh, sorry!). I came back to this thread to get more insight as to what I should get for my car. Now I know <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> But I just wanted to ask a quick question: Those KW variant 3's cover all 4 corners in one shot, correct? They are definitely a premium, but look like they'd be worth the price, especially since I could adjust them for street and track use. I know that some people would tell it that they would not be worth it, but I want this car to be a serious cornering machine, good breaks included. So if I could spend the extra money and get something that will be hard for the track and soft on the street (relatively) then I’m happy. Some of the streets here are pretty rough, even with a stock setup. I don’t want my car to be shaken apart <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



I’m planning on ordering the KLA strut brace to start myself off and then move on to the suspension later on this year. And as luck would have it there is a local store that sells the KWs, so I won’t need to deal with importing them from out of the country.



Now I need to think about what spring rates I want, torsion bar included.

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[RS Barn]

Most high end race teams with high end dampers have an engineer and crew cheif that has loads of race experience to make decisions on dampers/spring rates etc. I'm a believer in the whole package working together. I've driven cars with all the trick suspension goodies that suck due to imbalance. I also feel that only the top level PCA or Pro drivers have the ability or time to dial in their adjustable suspension.

I'm a believer in the Bilsteins Turbo Cup dampers with the "correct total set up" because I have so much time with such. I also know 99% of the drivers cannot exceed the limits of this package.

That doesn't mean there aren't better dampers available. Again 99% of drivers will not be able to take advantage of the improvements. They will most like tune their way to slowness

Pete

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[Renalicious]

I'm definitely not the kind of person who will be able to tune my own suspension to the level that a pro racing team can. However, whether I buy the Bilstein and have them shipped here, or I get the KWs locally, it will cost me roughly the same. As such I may as well spend the extra money and get the higher end stuff as I can always get a shop to help me tune it.



That being said, I don't plan on getting anything anytime soon unless I really need it <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> I know suspension is important for performance, but so are other things. I'm hoping to attend a number of DEs and Autocrosses this year and improve myself as a driver before I start investing in any hardcore mods (I haven't even done the air box mod yet!). I'll start off with a strut brace as its sure to help a lot, and for the price how can you go wrong?

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