[TheMirror]

As I get ready for the big suspension install, I need to round out a few things.



Front suspension will be Hypercoil progressives, Koni inserts, 944 Turbo castor blocks, and M030 sway bar with factory rubber bushings.



Rear suspension will be Koni adjustables, M030 sway bar with factory rubber bushings, Elephant Poly-bronze spring plate bushings, and a yet to be determined control arm bushing.



I'm keeping some rubber in there (I know Pete, I know), due to the large amount of street driving this car will see. I hate suspension harshness, so I'm going to minimize it wherever I can.



That being said, is one form of rear swaybar drop link better than another? I'm big on parts that I can install and generally forget about.....not having to clean them every 200 miles for optimal performance.



Thoughts?



-Mirror

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[RS Barn]

All the rear drop links are the same. Nobody makes a sealed bearing droplink. They just need a shot of lube once in a while. They really don't get noisy, it's just to keep them free moving.

I sell both KLA and Racers Edge. Looks like they both source from same place.

Call me for deal.

Pete

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[flash]

you're going to keep the torsion bars in there? that's a huge amount of work to stop halfway



to install the polybronze bushings, you have to burn off the rubber ones, which means removing the trailing arms - at that point, you may as well just yank the torsion bars and go coilover - you'll have a lot more control over ride height, and corner balance, as well as more options on spring rate



i'd either skip the polybronze, or go all the way - i have them, and love them, but going from rubber to those is a lot of work, and i never would have done it if i were not losing the torsion bars

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[TheMirror]

Good points. This type of suspension is uncharted territory for me so the best I can do is make educated guesses. With 119k on my car, I imagine my spring plate bushings are shot and need replacement. Doing the poly bronze but keeping the torsion bars is the strategy simply because its cheaper, and less dramatic of a step than full coilovers. I have limited ability to do work myself on my car, so getting the most bang for the buck at a shop is of significant importance.



With coilovers, the possibility exists that I will spend a lot of time chasing down what spring rate I want, what shock settings, etc. etc. In the end, there is no guarantee I will like that setup anyway, so it doesn't make sense for me at this point to make that big of a step.



Believe me, if I could skip replacing the rubber spring plate bushings, I will do so. I'd rather not pay for the work. Guess I need a little more input on that.



Cheers,

-M







[quote name='flash' date='Jul 20 2006, 09:00 AM']you're going to keep the torsion bars in there? that's a huge amount of work to stop halfway



to install the polybronze bushings, you have to burn off the rubber ones, which means removing the trailing arms - at that point, you may as well just yank the torsion bars and go coilover - you'll have a lot more control over ride height, and corner balance, as well as more options on spring rate



i'd either skip the polybronze, or go all the way - i have them, and love them, but going from rubber to those is a lot of work, and i never would have done it if i were not losing the torsion bars

[right][post="24359"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

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[flash]

i guess the first question to ask is "what makes you think you need to replace those bushings?" - they aren't really an issue in suspension play, as long as you have the torsion bars in there, and don't have more than 300 hp

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[TheMirror]

Just a very sense of Swiss/Germanic completeness I guess <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Simply researching through this site and 968.net put me under the impression that they did have effects on rear suspension effectiveness. If what you say is true, then you just saved me some cash! I'll save that mod for another day....if ever.



Best,



-Mirror







[quote name='flash' date='Jul 20 2006, 04:13 PM']i guess the first question to ask is "what makes you think you need to replace those bushings?" - they aren't really an issue in suspension play, as long as you have the torsion bars in there, and don't have more than 300 hp

[right][post="24406"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

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[flash]

yeah, i'd leave that one alone, unless you plan to really get in deep in the suspension - certainly, have them looked at if you can, but i've not yet heard of them failing - you'd be better off working on other areas, and spending the money on other things that will make you faster (like track time)



i know a lot of guys on the track change them, but it's always been in conjunction with other suspension changes - yes, they tighten things up, but that's a whole lot of work for a lot less return than you might think



after putting in the springs and such, make sure all your other bushings are up to snuff, and get a really good 4 wheel alignment with ride height set - then go drive and have fun

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[333pg333]

Flash, in that replacing the suspension system requires re-indexing of the torsion bars would this not be the best time to do it rather than from scratch? I agree that there are many different places to spend money and the time/expense to do this particular job may weigh on the value or return of results, but for me I want to allow my new suspension to attain most of it's potential and will put up with some harshness on the street like you do too I believe.

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[flash]

on the presumption that you need to change those bushings, yes



those particular bushings are not known for failure, and unless the car is going to be tracked, or you are increasing springs rates and such, or you are as sick as i am, the benefits of hard bushings in that location are minimal



i was looking to lower the rear of the car beyond what the eccentrics could do, and i wanted to increase rear spring rate - that meant either reindexing the torsion bars and/or replacing them, or going coilover and deleting them



the only reason i went to the polybronze was that the delrin torsion tube bushings i had in there made noise - i would not have likely changed from the rubber at all, if i had kept torsion bars in there - without the torsion bars, i had no option - the rubber could not support the control arm all by iself, without the inner tie point of the end of the torsion bar



seriously, it is a huge amount of work to change this particular bushing, with it only making a difference in the most extreme situations, or if you are deleting torsion bars altogether



on the other hand, the elephant racing rear lower control arm bushings do make a significant difference in feel and control, at the expense of a bit more noise and harshness, and are pretty easy to install



just because i did something, is not a reason for somebody else to do something - it's really about, how you intend to use the car, what you can tolerate, to some extent how much power you are outputting, and very much what the budget is like



for a street car, that is not looking to increase rear spring rates, or be lowered a lot, i think there are better places to spend the time and money that to replace a part that does not generally fail, cause problems, or has a minimal return in improvement when changed - i love the parts, but i had specific reasons that demanded them

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[333pg333]

Good answer. I may not have the 'Sickness' quite to your level yet only based on time spent doing this sort of thing. I have definitely 'Caught something' though and I am only getting closer to a track car that is driven on the street. I will probably heed your advice although as you said it's only worth replacing that part if there's something wrong with it. The only problem is as far as I can tell there's no way of determining this without getting in there and looking. If you go into the Elephant site they go into some good detail about this and other components. They show how these bearings do fail, but they would wouldn't they? I am getting a race suspension setup for my car and will be lowering it more so soon. Even though it is a daily driver over short mileage my focus is very much track oriented. In fact I am in my first season of club racing and am obsessed. I am currently 5th out of 60 cars in the club champs and have desires and realistic expectations to improve next season. My current hp would be approx. 300 at the crank I guess. My target is around 350-400hp. So I think we are on a similar path, you just left before me.... <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

well, if that's the case, and especially since you are headed for that much power, you are throwing class racing rules out the window, since you would only be able to compete in modified classes



so, at that point, you aren't required to deal with torsion bars, and should really be thinking about torsion bar deletion and going coilover - it's a much better setup, with a lot more flexibility



that makes the polybronze bushing a good fit for you, for exactly the same reasons it was for me

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[333pg333]

Unfortunatly we have to retain our torsion bars in our club to qualify. I could possibly take them out and compete in the open class but I'm not ready for that just yet. I'm not sure if you know but I'm in a 944 turbo not 968 so that power (estimated 280-300hp at crank) I have is a little more than stock. So in your opinion while retaining torsion bars, is this still a worthwhile replacement?

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[flash]

well, that's altogether different



lowering the car more than the eccentrics will entail reindexing at a minimum, that would be the time to decide about bigger torsion bars and bushings - it really comes down to whether or not you need to go lower than what the eccentrics will do



that is exactly what drove my change

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[333pg333]

So I now see that Elephant Racing has uprated torsion bars available as well. I now need to consider this. If I have to go in there anyway this is the time to do it. Any feelings on this? Solid or Hollow and what size? I don't know anyone who has done this so I'm flying blind a.t.m.

Thanks for any advice.

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[flash]

hollow for 2 reasons



1. weight



2. stiffer per size - there is a chart on the paragon site that gives spring rates for given hollow diameters

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[333pg333]

Chris White had an interseting p.o.v. He said that in fact you reduce the t-bar down to approx. 10mm and go to full coilover. Interesting idea. I'm not sure how you reduce the t-bar though?

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[flash]

you have to take the whole thing apart and reindex to do that



what he is talking about is a way to legally cheat - the torsion bar is still in there, but is doing next to nothing - technically, it's still there, so it passes rules

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[333pg333]

Cheating's such a harsh word don't you think? Most guys in our club who are at the pointy end of the field stretch the rules somewhere between a slither to increased capacity and compression, race suspension and tyres, carbon panels etc. A 'standard' '88 Carrera 3.0 is probably 3.4 11/1 compression weighing 100kgs less. The scrutineering is pretty casual.

Seriously, I'm going to leave mine as they are due to the new suspension being made taking into account the standard t-bars. The guy said my spring rates are 110 N front and 50 N rear helpers. I assumed this was Newton metres but when I tried to convert this into PSI it looked wrong. I hope he hasn't made them too soft due to it being a road car. Those numbers look a little limp. Maybe you multiply them by about 4 with any luck. Of course this isn't taking into account the shocks and their valving. This, as usual, is a continuous learning curve. It's a #$%#$ expensive one, but I can't get this out of my mind. I go to sleep thinking about mods, probably dream of them, and wake ( that's W-A-K-E!) thinking about them. We do approx. 1 track day a month for 9 months so not a lot of racing. Also you guys have so many tracks which are also better than ours I think. We have one or two that are world class, Phillip Island and of course the annual Bathurst race for our V8 touring cars but I don't race on these. Ah well it's better than nothing.

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[flash]

no - i don't think it's harsh at all - i wasn't taking a shot - but, it is what it is - it certainly was not the intention of the rule to do that mod



that being said, yes, nearly everybody looks for loopholes and open interpretations of the rules - that's part of being a good tuner (knowing what you can do and what you can't)



many of the rules just don't make sense - so, you have to find ways to bend them - for example, in PCA class stuff, the cab and hardtop have to run in the same class, and meet the same weight, but you can't remove the things that make the cab heavier, or increase power to compensate - how is that fair?



you should see what goes on in SCCA though - in vintage, the rules are really tight, and the guys are nuts about them - it's almost like a mixed event (concours/race) - but, in class racing, you see some really interesting "interpretations" of some of the rules

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[333pg333]

I'm still trying to figure out those spring rates if anyone has an idea?

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