[333pg333]

Hi Guys

First post and I'm looking for any advice or experience of a race type setup on a daily driver. Let me qualify. I'm in Sydney, Australia and we don't have anywhere near the aftermarket products available to us here so we just order them in based on reading websites such as this and hope for the best. I have a 944 turbo 's' and am looking at changing from my Mo30/968cs setup to a brand by the name of KW. It doesn't seem to be so popular in the US but a lot of the guys in the UK and Europe are using this brand. I've looked at it and it is very good and well priced. My question is that I am being encouraged to go for their 2-way adjustable race system as opposed to their Variant 3 pack. It is essentially custom made for your needs and uses. I drive my car daily but over short distances and visit the track about once a month but at this stage I have been bitten badly by the bug and want to improve enough to challenge the big boys in their evil GT3's etc. So do where do you compromise, Road or Track?

Thanks for any advice.



Patrick



PS I chose this website as a lot of the 944 turbo guys concentrate on engine gains and leave suspension till later if at all! I find that the 968 guys are better at tuning their suspensions as you sort of have to as there are less engine mods available to you. Also I have been driving on the street with R-spec rubber and I will be going back to normal road tyres and have a track specific wheel/tyre combo, so I should get some comfort back with road tyres shouldn't I?

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[Dave]

Greetings Patrick,



I'm not familiar with the KW set-up, but run a Leda race suspension on my Club Race car and daily driver. I really don't find the suspension to be as much of an issue as the cage/seat/steering wheel, quite frankly.



That said, one must be prepared for lots of squeaks and rattles and one must be a bit more careful on the road with a race alignment.



The other downside is added pounding on the race components on Chicago roads. Really not that bad overall, but one must watch to avoid hitting really big bumps.



Other than that, I can comfortably drive the car 3+ hours on the road before getting a bit fatigued from it all. If you don't mind stiff and communicative handling, it shouldn't be an issue.



Just my 2 cents, hope this helps.

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[jpk]

It's all about compromise. I haven't done anything to my 968 (yet) but over the course of about 5 years, I've taken my 944 from stock to extreme track (brutal to drive on the street) back to something that works pretty well for both.



Started with 250# front springs (lowered the front 1.5"), strut brace, bigger anti-roll bars (front and rear), koni struts, and the rear was just indexed to level and balance the car (rear was lowered about 3")



This setup handled really well (great on the track - I was catching a lot of people through the turns), but on the street, the rear suspension was always bottoming out on bumps (there was less than 1" travel) and way to "bouncy" compared to the front.



I then swapped out the rear torsion bars (from the stock 23mm to 28mm) to match the spring rate in front, but left the level alone. This was better, but the rear was still bottoming out on the road. Much less "bouncy" though.



Finally, this last winter, I raised the rear back up about 1.25". I'm pretty pleased with this now - the ride quality on the street is good (still stiff, but very bearable compared to what it was) and it still sticks like glue in the turns. I'm riding on Toyo T1-S on the street, RA-1's for the track (unless it's wet, then I leave the T1-S's on)

As I only drive the car 3,000 miles/year, I really don't care about the tire wear due do the alignment. I'll easily get 3-4 years out of the street tires, maybe more.



I'll probably do something similar with the 968. First order of business is a strut brace and aggressive alignment to tighten up the front end. Over the winter, I'll see about stiffer/lower front springs and torsion bars to match. I'd like to lower the car 1.5 - 2 inches overall. Right now, there's a bit over 3 inches difference in height between the '44 and the '68 at the door sill. Comparatively, the 968 looks like an SUV.

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[333pg333]

I think the KW's are really worth checking out if you want to upgrade your system. There's a U.S. website as well. They have adjustable damping and rebound but also have developed a high speed bypass valve which is good over small bumps and over ripple strips found on the track without unsettling the car. I am going to 18" 255/35 9" on the front and 285/30 10"'s on the rear so there won't be much room to spare! The streets of Sydney feel like they were built by the convicts 200+ years ago but I am at the stage where it's more important to get those few precious seconds afforded by the stiffer suspension and live with losing the odd tooth filling!

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[flash]

i'm at 300# in the front on konis, and 350# in the rear on carerras (no torsion bars)



while i love them, and am very comfortable on the street, i actually think they still might be a bit softer than i can go - they might drive others nuts though

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[333pg333]

Yes we have to keep our torsion bars to qualify within our club rules. I am also toying with the idea of poly bushings which I'm told really tighten up the handling but of course add to the harshness of the ride. I also need a strut tower brace. Any recommendations here?

Thanks



Patrick

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[flash]

right now there isn't much choice - kla is the only brace i know of that works that is currently available



which bushings are you considering changing? i currently have all sealed monoball lower suspension bushings, and delrin on the swaybars - definitely have more feedback, but i wouldn't say too harsh - more noise in the rear though - not the kind of thing to do if you want a super quiet or super smooth car

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[333pg333]

Yes I'm just trying to buy the KLA bar but for some reason Paypal has forgotton me and no matter what I do I can't log in. So I'll have to call them in the morning. I'm not sure I understand what Delrin is? As for the bushings I've had mine replaced with upgraded 968cs one's which are meant to be a little less rubbery but people talk about poly/bronze ones which really enhance the cars directionality (if that's a word?).

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[flash]

there are a lot of bushings in the car - front lower control arm, castor block, rear lower control arm, torsion tube, front sway bar, rear sway bar, etc - it would be helpful to indicate which ones you are talking about



different materials are better in different places



delrin is a bushing material, very well suited to swaybar bushings, but not so good for rear control arms or torsion tubes as other materials



i have no idea what bushings you replaced from a cs

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[Dave]

I'm on spring rates that are better than 2x Flash's and don't mind it on the street. Compliance (adjustable shocks) seems to help a LOT. If they were fix-valved stiff shocks, I might not be so happy.



Also, there is little if any rubber left in my car. All spherical bearings and such (hence the squeaking).



The wife finds the car embarrassing to ride in (Pagid race pads = NOISE), but I drive the thing anywhere.



Is there a chance to drive a similar car (968 or 944S2) with this suspension? I did so by borrowing a friend's track beast and taking it away from the track for a short spin.



I returned with a "Gee, I can live with this" look on my face and ordered up the parts <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

lol - the bad news is that i may be going even stiffer soon - not sure yet - not looking to exceed the konis - i'm starting to build quite a nice collection of springs



the good news is that i'm getting really good at swapping springs and resetting ride height - i can do the whole job on all 4 corners now in about an hour

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[333pg333]

I have a list/bill of all the changes made at home so I'll dig them up and post them. I drove the local dealer of KW's in my car with my front Koni's adjusted to their hardest setting with min rebound and he said that the race setting of his product shouldn't be any harder than that so I will pursue the race system.

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[whakiewes]

I have used KW's before on several different makes. Infact, my 968 is the first car that I haven't used KW's in, mostly because of the products lack of availability in the states. KW North America (AKA HPA Motorsports) offers good prices, but the 968 parts are rather hard to get, and if I remember speaking to them clearly, there was a core charge on the KW struts for 968's. I am on Bilstein Escort Cups with 350F and 400R springs. Very soon I am going to get the shocks rebuilt and upgraded slightly to run 450F 500R. With the new rubber, there is so much grip that I am actually getting a little body roll that was non-existent on the stock 16's. My suspension is stiff for about 90% of the people that ride in my car, but I can definantly go stiffer. I do have about a million pronounced squeeks and rattles, and with my current alignment setting I get a bit of bump steer and a lot of tramlining. I am at ~ 1.7 negative camber front and 1.2 negative rear based on my sheets from the PO. Lowered to 24" front, 25.2" rear, 1 degree rake.



Just to add some opinion about the KW's though, they are a great supsension company. They will build anything you want, and they offer different 'circuit' packages if you want a race suspension. On my E30 M3 I had the Nurburgring setup which was valved for bumpy high speed. Not sure what is changed, but my Var. 3 on that setup was way more controllable at 160mph than my car was on Bilstein/HR Sports. The Variant 3's are the top of the line streetable coilovers, and I would highly reccomend them, being double adjustable, very well built, and about $2500 street price. I have been debating whether to change coilovers to something more adjustable.



Wes

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[Mark]

Biggest problem with KW V3s on 968 is adjusting the rebound on the rears involves removing them since you cant get to the adjuster. I'm sure Patrick saw that on the Uk forums where the KW is doing very well. They are on the top of my list as a suspension mod but the rebound adjustment may knock them down a rung or two.

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[333pg333]

Thanks Guys for your thoughtful replies. It sometimes seems that there are friendlier sites than the 951 Rennlisters around. Here is about as much as I can dig up re the replacement bushes:



New 968cs lower suspension arm bush

Front arb bushes both inner and outer 944 343 79405 / 79331

Rear arb bushes 964 333 79200

Front shock bump stops Mo30

Front shock Gator boots Mo30

Steering rack boots

There are probably more but I can't find them.



As for the KW's. Yes the lack of access to adjust the rear rebound is a bit of a drag, but I will probably just settle on a setting and leave it as is. I have in fact just ordered the

2-way adjustable race version which will be custom made to my requirements so I'm looking forward to this arriving in 3-4 weeks. Unfortunately our race season is coming to a close so I won't get much use out of them this year. I'll let you know how they come out.



Patrick

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[jpr]

Jpk,



if the rear was bouncy with the 28mm torsion bars, you were bottoming out because you dont have enough damping. I had the same problem and it was caused by having one of my leadas with bad seals. Once fixed, my suspension travel is very controlled and no bottoming occurs, even with the lower ride height.



Jpr



[quote name='jpk' date='Jul 16 2006, 05:52 PM']It's all about compromise. I haven't done anything to my 968 (yet) but over the course of about 5 years, I've taken my 944 from stock to extreme track (brutal to drive on the street) back to something that works pretty well for both.



Started with 250# front springs (lowered the front 1.5"), strut brace, bigger anti-roll bars (front and rear), koni struts, and the rear was just indexed to level and balance the car (rear was lowered about 3")



This setup handled really well (great on the track - I was catching a lot of people through the turns), but on the street, the rear suspension was always bottoming out on bumps (there was less than 1" travel) and way to "bouncy" compared to the front.



I then swapped out the rear torsion bars (from the stock 23mm to 28mm) to match the spring rate in front, but left the level alone. This was better, but the rear was still bottoming out on the road. Much less "bouncy" though.



Finally, this last winter, I raised the rear back up about 1.25". I'm pretty pleased with this now - the ride quality on the street is good (still stiff, but very bearable compared to what it was) and it still sticks like glue in the turns. I'm riding on Toyo T1-S on the street, RA-1's for the track (unless it's wet, then I leave the T1-S's on)

As I only drive the car 3,000 miles/year, I really don't care about the tire wear due do the alignment. I'll easily get 3-4 years out of the street tires, maybe more.



I'll probably do something similar with the 968. First order of business is a strut brace and aggressive alignment to tighten up the front end. Over the winter, I'll see about stiffer/lower front springs and torsion bars to match. I'd like to lower the car 1.5 - 2 inches overall. Right now, there's a bit over 3 inches difference in height between the '44 and the '68 at the door sill. Comparatively, the 968 looks like an SUV.

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[flash]

i'm still not clear on the 968cs bushing - which lower suspension arm, front or rear? do you mean the castor block?

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[333pg333]

Yes. The lower suspension arm castor bush. I don't do the work myself. I don't have time. My mechanic does it all so my knowledge is limited. It's been a learning process which is slow as I'm not much of a DIY'er.

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