[SILVY968]

ron1688,



Thanks. Very helpful.

Almost have all of the info that I will need to attempt installation.



1) do I need an antenna adapter? If so what # and where to get?

2) Where and what color is the rear parking lights wire for reverse?

3) how do you remove the center console? Seems obvious except around the 6 speed shift knob?

4) what material works best for the faceplate?



VERY GRATEFUL FOR THE HELP!

There is no substitute for experience.



Brian

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[Glau]

[quote name='flash' post='41042' date='Sep 10 2007, 11:16 PM']<snip> and definitely do not want the poor sound quality of the ipod - cd is bad enough - the ipod sounds as bad as or worse than FM <snip>[/quote]





These days there are a number of good digital solutions for a people with a tin ear. With the storage size of current players there is no reason not to use an uncompressed format (.wav or .aiff for example) or a "lossless" codec format for your digital music library that have virtually no difference from their CD counterpart. The main problem though is lossless codecs are about an order of magnitude larger in size compared to a "lossy" compressed format like mp3 version (so instead of 40,000 mp3 songs on the 160gig iPod you could "ONLY" put around 4000 lossless songs) and uncompressed versions are even worse (about double the size of lossless, so only 2000 songs). It's your choice: 1,411 kbits/s uncompressed or ~700 kbits/s for lossless versus 192 kbits/s for high quality lossy). So don't blame the iPod for the poor music quality, if you use the right formats it really can have CD quality output. As another odd side note, the higher sample rates will cause your iPod battery to die faster.



Anyway, just trying to keep you real on this topic like you love to do for all of us with 968 issues (and a big thanks from me for it).



glau

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[flash]

even at 1400kb/s, the bit rate is still 16 and the sampling rate is still too low



when they come up with a system that is at least 24bit and 96khz, i'll think about making a change



they are convenient though, but i can just as easily burn discs like that

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[Glau]

[quote name='flash' post='41855' date='Sep 29 2007, 08:29 PM']even at 1400kb/s, the bit rate is still 16 and the sampling rate is still too low



when they come up with a system that is at least 24bit and 96khz, i'll think about making a change



they are convenient though, but i can just as easily burn discs like that[/quote]



I'm not trying to get you to consider an iPod or any other like device. I don't use my iPod in my car and I wouldn't expect you to either. I appreciate oversample or upsampling just as much as the next tin eared guy for CDs (but would argue 96khz oversampling in a noisy car environment or when running around using ear buds is overkill).



I am just pointing out that your comment:



<snip> and definitely do not want the poor sound quality of the ipod - cd is bad enough - the ipod sounds as bad as or worse than FM <snip>



is unfair and a bit out there in left field. You don't let other people get away with making untrue comments like this -- just thought you would appreciate being corrected instead of us "in-the-know" silently rolling our eyes everytime you make a statement like this bashing iPods. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Many reviews targeted toward high-end audio have shown that the last few generations of iPod do have a place in the audiophiles life if used properly. For example, Stereophile did a review a few years back on the third generation iPod (before Apple's Lossless format was available) and after performing a number of tests concluded:



"The iPod's measured behavior is better than many CD players—ironic, considering that most of the time it will be used to play MP3 and AAC files, which will not immediately benefit from such good performance. But if you're willing to trade off maximum playing time against the ability to play uncompressed AIFF or WAV files, the iPod will do an excellent job of decoding them. Excellent, cost-effective audio engineering from an unexpected source.—John Atkinson"



This paragraph is lifted from:

http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/934/index5.html



From there are links to the full review and tests if interested.



Glau

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[flash]

admittedly i am the exception to the rule, and a lot more demanding than most, but remember, this is what i do for a living



i think you are missing the point i am trying to make - CD is NOT GOOD ENOUGH for me, so comparing lossless MP3 to CD does no good - that's like saying "if you soup that 82 corvette up, it's as fast as ferrari 308" - for me, TAPE IS BETTER - digital bad - analog good - for me to switch to MP3 or any other digital format, it would have to be BETTER than CD, as i barely tolerate CD



i'd run vinyl in the car if i could



obviosuly i've spent WAY too many hours in the studio, and on the road with million dollar PAs for my own good, but i have yet to hear ANY digital format that is good enough to beat a good 2" - as an example, i recently did a live album for brian auger, and we REALLY wished we could have dragged a 2" and neve console to the venue - the difference between that and the protools rig was staggering, even with state of the art digital mic pres, especially considering his music - the low frequency response and feel just isn't there, and we were at 24bit - by the time it got mixed down and mastered to 16bit, it just didn't have the same ooomph - yes, 6db of headroom is nicer than 3, but it wasn't headroom that was the problem



then there is the hardware - rcas are bad enough, being unbalanced, but a mini jack, with a shared ground just doesn't cut it - when they come out with discreet l & r outputs, i'll look at it



convenient yes, quality no - unfortunately, today's listener doesn't care like they used to - you used to see people out there scouring the countryside for the hottest turntable - now, when they don't merely download a song, play it and forget it,they are content to listen to CD - the concept of music librarys for listening rooms is rapidly becoming a thing of the past - i blame MTV for that one - when is the last time you met anybody who went out and bought every almbum from an artist, just to have the full collection?



granted that in my 968, especially with the top down, i would be hard pressed to hear the difference, but i can hear it in the denali and the bmw - sure, i'll put up with CD for long trips, and probably start burning MP3 disks to take up less space, but it has really gotten to the point where i no longer listen to the stereo in the car for the sake of listening, and rather just for white noise, but i find now that it is usually off altogether, to avoid the frustration, or contaminating my ears - the last thing i can afford to do is listen to lower quality stuff, and then try to go into a studio or mix at a large venue



when they come up with a hard drive system that outperforms CD, and is big enough, i'll probably jump on that - i'd love to not have to carry around any media - the one in the Z2 is about the same as a CD, but there isn't enough space (10gig) - i'm hoping they come up with a piggyback drive

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[SILVY968]

Bob,

Just listen to the engine when you drive the 968. It's the only music that you need. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

2" is dead, whether we like it or not. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Perhaps your ProTools rig needs a Prism or Apogee front end and a clock, anyway the dollars dictate the equipment and the 99 cent download is the new way that music is sold.

P.S. Keyboards do not have the "cent" symbol anymore. When did that go away? Anyway, if you are listening to music in your car it should be for the rhythm of the music and not the analog concert experience, if that is what you want you know how to get it.



If anyone can answer my earlier post about NAV install I would appreciate it, I only want to tear things up once.



Thanks

Brian

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[ron1688]

[quote name='SILVY968' post='41841' date='Sep 28 2007, 08:33 PM']ron1688,



Thanks. Very helpful.

Almost have all of the info that I will need to attempt installation.



1) do I need an antenna adapter? If so what # and where to get?

2) Where and what color is the rear parking lights wire for reverse?

3) how do you remove the center console? Seems obvious except around the 6 speed shift knob?

4) what material works best for the faceplate?



VERY GRATEFUL FOR THE HELP!

There is no substitute for experience.



Brian[/quote]



1. You do not need an antenna adapter. The oem antenna works just fine.

2. the parking light wire is the green/black wire and can be found on the rear trunk with a cylinder type connector.

3. The center can be easily removed. 2 screws on the rear console and 1 on each side of the front. the shift knob boot will easyly pop out and removed.

4. I used wood for the faceplate or you can go to tap plastic and use the same finish as the unit itself.



Hope this helps

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[flash]

funny - did use the apogee - helped but not quite there



i sadly agree on all counts - which is why i usually turn it off



there is also a clip that holds the shift know on - don't lose it



i love TAP - i think it's a bay area thing though

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[SILVY968]

[quote name='ron1688' post='41864' date='Sep 30 2007, 12:11 PM']1. You do not need an antenna adapter. The oem antenna works just fine.

2. the parking light wire is the green/black wire and can be found on the rear trunk with a cylinder type connector.

3. The center can be easily removed. 2 screws on the rear console and 1 on each side of the front. the shift knob boot will easyly pop out and removed.

4. I used wood for the faceplate or you can go to tap plastic and use the same finish as the unit itself.



Hope this helps[/quote]



Ron1688 <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Excellent. thank you very much. With the local shops in town wanting $400-450, I will do the install myself. You get the impression that they see the Porsche and adjust the price accordingly. Highway robbery, but maybe living in the same city as Bill Gates doesn't help.

Our cars really look great with this functional unit installed.

I plan on setting the display color to red and installing red led's into the instrument cluster ( yes flash, I like the BMW cluster look). There are very detailed instructions on how to build a custom background screen for the D3 on avic411.com.

When I am done I'll be glad to share the background with any who are interested.

If I can slow myself down during the D3 install, I'll try and get some pics for those that are thinking about this mod.

Brian

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[Glau]

[quote name='flash' post='41861' date='Sep 30 2007, 01:37 PM']then there is the hardware - rcas are bad enough, being unbalanced, but a mini jack, with a shared ground just doesn't cut it - when they come out with discreet l & r outputs, i'll look at it[/quote]



Sorry Flash, I really don't mean to be busting your balls on this, but once again you are just wrong here. The current iPods have a 30pin digital data link docking port. Properly integrated into a car receiver iPods do not use the mini-jack but this docking port. This enables the receiver to use the song list navigation system of the iPod to find and display music and its associated info. And you can purchase from apple a composite AV cable (or usb or firewire) that connects your audio equipment to this docking port as well. No reason to use the mini-jack for anything but head phones.



Glau

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[flash]

so, what you are telling me is:



IF i go out and buy a new deck with the new hot ports and such...



AND presuming that i can find one with at least a 5 band parametric eq or a 16 band graphic, time alignment, and multi channel output, like the ones i have now... (absolutely essential to any decent system, and non-negotialble)



AND i set the ipod on max quality,



THEN i can finally get CD quality out of an ipod



again - so what? CD sucks - if it's BETTER than CD, fine - if it's only as good as CD, then it's the same nonsense, and i'm already there, without spending a dime or changing a thing



i fail to see the advantage, beyond convenience, and you have to go a LONG way to get there



AND then you have another stupid gadget you have to find power for (batteries suck - hardwire power is the ONLY way to go)



AND you have to find a place to mount it, secure it, and hide it



AND you have to connect and disconnect it if you don't find such a place (i don't carry CDs because it's too much of a hassle - why would i carry an ipod?)



when they come up with a PERMANENTLY mounted hard drive than has BETTER than CD quality, with analog outputs (so i don't get stuck back in the limited digital processor of the deck) then and only then would it make sense for me to make a change



change for the sake of change is idiotic - change for something truly better is fine, and i'm first in line



they just have not gotten there yet with the ipod - granted they are getting closer, but not yet - unfortunately, i don't think they ever will - the market just doesn't demand it



if i stuck you in my listening room, and plugged in your ipod, you would figure out the difference in a hurry - you would also choose vinyl every time



but, as i said, i understand the convenience, and with the volitility of the music market, i get it - i just don't want to listen to it - i'll wait, spend the money, and get real audio quality - it's the same reason i wouldn't buy a bose acoustimass system for a listening room either (cheap junk that sounds like crap) but, most people don't know the difference



and that, i think, is the real problem



but, that's also why they pay me what they do, so i'm ok with that

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[Glau]

[quote name='flash' post='41882' date='Sep 30 2007, 09:28 PM']so, what you are telling me is:



<snip>[/quote]



NO, I am not telling you any of that at all. So far I have told you two things. (1) iPod is not necessarily less than FM in quality and can do CD quality (and tried to nicely explain why and show proof), and (2) the mini-jack is for headphones and dock port for more advanced applications. The two things you incorrectly stated. That is all -- DON'T assume anything else.



Glau

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[flash]

lol - ok - this is fun stuff - i'm such a geek - i spend a fair amount of time talking about stuff like this on a day to day basis - constantly changing technology is the nature of the business, so keeping up is always a challenge - it's gotten to the point where i almost dread NAMM anymore, because it means having to ramp up to a whole new set of gear



if you want to deal in absolutes, then sure, i'll give you that the new units, if you set them at their maximum, have the ability to get up to the widely accepted albeit inadequate quality of CD



this is not the norm though



it's a lot like saying that traffic is going 165 because the car can go 165, or that it's going 65 because the speed limit says 65 - we all know that this is not the case - the reality is that very few people do what you are suggesting (or care) - they do what works for for them - in the case of traffic, it usually means 10% over the posted limit - in the case of ipods, this usually means the small file size, and its inherant poor quality



itunes downloads and such are generally 128kbps, which means that no matter what file size you set the ipod at, it will still be the low quality audio, because of your source - garbage in, garbage out



and it only works well on the highest level of decks with the right ports and such - this is also not the norm



so, if you rip your own files, from a source that gives you the highest quality to begin with, and play it back on a deck that is prepared for it, yes, you can get up to CD quality on your ipod



i have yet to meet anybody who has this kind of setup



in the end, it seems an unavoidable compromise, and one i do not relish, but with little other choice out there, it appears the way of the future - the ability to have 300 albums on one device is obviously attractive, and CD is generally tolerable in a car



now, if only there were the time to load all of the albums into the darned thing, and a place to hardwire it into the car (do they even have a 12v connector?)

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[Glau]

Ok, well this is quite a song and dance number we are doing. Sorry to anyone that is reading this thread specifically for Nav system info. First off Flash, I would like to direct you to my first two sentences in post #84 -- I don't care if you use an iPod or not. My car is wired for iPod with my Alpine Navigation system but I never use it anymore because I can't be bothered to remember to grab the iPod everytime I drive the car. I build my own custom CDs that I use in a changer, so I have not been tempted at all to buy an iPod just for the car. If I go on a long drive with the wife we may use the iPod because it contains our entire CD collection, not just my favorites. And unfortunately yes, we are not listening to CD quality from our iPod and the downgrade in quality from our old crappy mp3s is noticeable and annoying but we still love it and have a great time when we do anything in the 968. [quote name='flash' post='41887' date='Oct 1 2007, 07:04 AM']<snip>

and it only works well on the highest level of decks with the right ports and such - this is also not the norm

<snip>[/quote]

NO, the iPod will work on just about any new model deck (or at least within the last few years) over about a $100 with a $25 cable. Which is certainly not high-end (you under estimate the power of selling the number of iPod units Apple has sold). And with an ~$100 adapter you can get most older decks that have the ability to control a changer to work as well.[quote name='flash' post='41887' date='Oct 1 2007, 07:04 AM']<snip>

i have yet to meet anybody who has this kind of setup

<snip>[/quote]

I bet you that many of the people here using an iPod in their car are using the dock connector and are able to control the iPod from their receiver. But yes most people are going to be using a lossy format. This is not rocket science.[quote name='flash' post='41887' date='Oct 1 2007, 07:04 AM']<snip>

now, if only there were the time to load all of the albums into the darned thing, and a place to hardwire it into the car (do they even have a 12v connector?)[/quote]

I hear ya on ripping CDs -- its a pain. Unfortunately for me, my wife and I did the majority of our CD collection over ten years ago and now all needs to be redone with uncompressed or a lossless codec format. I will probably go with uncompressed so I have more options in the future and big hard-drives are now so cheap space is a non-issue. Plus, there is no universal lossless format as of yet. Nonetheless, what a nightmare.



Finally, the iPod is hardwired for power through the dock connector and is suppled power via the receiver. No need to worry about this and its draw is minimal. Go to Crutchfield or your favorite online AV store and do a search on "pioneer ipod" and you can see for yourself that this is maybe a 15 minute job that requires one cable and snaking it to your desired location. It really is that simple.



Glau

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[flash]

lol - yeah, but it's all good fun



when i referred to working only on higher end decks, i was referring to the multi-pin connector or usb ports, and not adapting to those, bringing in yet another conversion of signal (read degradation)



so far as i can remember, nobody here has said they do this - so far, EVERY car i have seen with an ipod is using the headphone jack - i'm sure that some use the cool ports, and certainly it is the smart move, but so far, i have not seen or heard of anybody doing it - i do remember somebody saying prior to purchase of their deck that they would be able to control the ipod from their deck, but i don't remember them actually saying they got it going



i have about 1000 "albums" (all media forms combined) - not sure if i will ever find the time to dump that in (lol - and which ones do i leave out?)



thanks for the tip on the power - if i can find a place to park the unit, and my deck controls it from the face, and has the ports, and i can convince myself to spent the time dumping in the media, this is likely the way i wil have to go myself - there does not seem to be any move in the near future to 24 or 32bit personal recording, and this is better than dragging around the 100 CDs that i did on my hershey trip



sometimes you have to make compromises for convenience



roflmao - of course this means i have to buy 3 of them (refer to the "love" of dragging stuff around mentioned above) - the good news is that all 3 of the decks i have should work from the face, although at least 2 of them need the adaptor box from pioneer

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[ron1688]

[quote name='flash' date='Oct 1 2007, 08:56 AM' post='41899']

lol - yeah, but it's all good fun





so far as i can remember, nobody here has said they do this - so far, EVERY car i have seen with an ipod is using the headphone jack - i'm sure that some use the cool ports, and certainly it is the smart move, but so far, i have not seen or heard of anybody doing it - i do remember somebody saying prior to purchase of their deck that they would be able to control the ipod from their deck, but i don't remember them actually saying they got it going







Here is the snapshop of the Ipod interface for the D3. The d3 has a separate port for the ipod interface and the functuality of the ipod is controlled throught the head unit. The only item that must be controlled directly from the ipod is the video function.    

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[SILVY968]

[quote name='SILVY968' post='41878' date='Sep 30 2007, 06:55 PM']Ron1688 <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Excellent. thank you very much. With the local shops in town wanting $400-450, I will do the install myself. You get the impression that they see the Porsche and adjust the price accordingly. Highway robbery, but maybe living in the same city as Bill Gates doesn't help.

Our cars really look great with this functional unit installed.

I plan on setting the display color to red and installing red led's into the instrument cluster ( yes flash, I like the BMW cluster look). There are very detailed instructions on how to build a custom background screen for the D3 on avic411.com.

When I am done I'll be glad to share the background with any who are interested.

If I can slow myself down during the D3 install, I'll try and get some pics for those that are thinking about this mod.

Brian[/quote]

Ron1688

I read in your post that you did not hook up the vehicle speed sensor (VSS). I would like to hook it up and have read that the cruise control circuits usually have this 800-1000 pulse per mile trigger line used in their systems. I have the cruise control diagram but it does not identify that line with that description. Can you locate a VSS line in our cars?

Just got a new AVIC-D3 on Ebay for $ 630 and so a new project for next weekend.



Thanks, Brian

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[SILVY968]

Some screens for the Pioneer AVIC-D# GPS.



Free to all, just download and place in a folder named Pictures. Burn a CD and install.

Brian



   

   

   

   

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[SILVY968]

pin # 9 on the DME should be the pulse that the GPS systems needs for the vehicle speed sensor (VSS). Please post results, right or wrong.



Brian

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[SILVY968]

All done. Thanks to Ron and Flash for their help.

<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

Very pleased with the addition. Looks factory and works great.

P.S. The same speakers sound better!

   

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