[968LS1]

Did I say anything about my driving skills? FYI-I was not driving th car I mentioned in my last post. You are probably right on both statements though, so I won't waste anymore forum space on this topic.

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[flash]

no worries - it's only because it goes against everything basic in chassis setup that i stand on this - for a front engine, rear drive car, with near 50/50 weight distribution, a slight front bias is one thing (5% or so), but the bias you are talking about is excessive, and contrary to basic design principle



if the engine is a lot heavier, thereby making the front of the car heavier, then i understand the spring set



i look forward to seeing the weights

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[Eric_K]

For reference, I'm currently running 650 fr, 800 rear springs. I prefer a ill-handling car. In fact it is completely undriveable. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



The V8 power must be intoxicating, the biggest weakness of the 968 is its power output IMHO.

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[flash]

with or without torsion bars?

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[Eric_K]

no tb's.

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[flash]

here's where this gets weird:



both paragon and racer's edge say the effective rate of the rear springs is low (.56 and .43 or something respectively)



that means that an 800# spring is really only 448 and 344 depending on which number you use



add the torsion rate if you have them (175), and you get in the range of "normal" with a 650 up front - no torsions, and the rear is way too soft



a hatchback starts out 66# heavy in the rear - that means it needs a higher rate spring just to be even to the front



the stock front 160# springs are 94% effective making the wheel rate 150# - the stock rear wheel rate is 175 - that makes a front to rear ratio rear biased - the ratio is .859:1



plug in any rates you want to from there



so, either they are both very wrong in the math, or a lot of people are springing their cars too soft in the rear - you be the judge of which - i only know what i've found out on mine so far



i started with 250 in the front, went up to 400 and back down to 300 with stops in between, and 350 in the rear and went up to 600 and back down to 500 with similar stops in between - this is now balancing fairly well against the 300 up front, given that i am still probably about 75# light in the rear due to the nature of being a cab, and all the weght reduction stuff i did, even after moving the battery to the trunk



if a car "feels" like it's handling right, it may merely be masking setup issues - a lot of people make the mistake of adding a ton of camber to correct for oversteer when in reality it is a spring, weight balance, or sway bar issue - while the rule of thumb is that stiffer springs cause oversteer, a spring that is way too soft can do much the same thing, but in the form of power oversteer



i found a lot of this out the hard way, when i was young and thought i knew everything, disagreeing with my mentor about setup for a long time - then he told me to just shut up and try what he was saying - i did, and he was right - then he walked me through the physics of it and how one thing can mask another, and while you think it's right and it even "feels" right, you are actually scrubbing speed off in a corner - it really showed up in my brakes and tires - after i did what he told me to, i got twice the life out of both, and was a good 2 seconds a lap faster



one of the big problems is that even the M030 swaybars are not nearly big enough to correct the suspension issues - you end up springing the car firm in the front and soft in the rear, and then adding a ton of camber, or really huge tires, just to try to keep it stable and stop sloshing around - i just went through this - i tried at least 7 different sets of springs trying to figure out what the heck was going on, and why the car was not behaving like the books said it should



a quick look at film of a car will tell a lot - a car dipping in the outside rear or lifting the inside front going into a corner says the rear is too soft relative to the front



the solution for me was bigger sway bars - i took it for granted that these M030 bars were the things to use - it turns out that it was only because there was nothing else out there - so, i made bigger ones - now i have nearly textbook spring rates and almost no body roll - the car is definitely quicker in the corners, and a lot more stable - i'm still a touch soft on spring in the rear, but it is a street car after all, and this makes it comfortable - i will finally get a chance to see just how much better it is when i get it out on the track later this summer



it would be interesting to compare lap times over the years of cars with different setups



this is a fun discussion though

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[968gene]

This string of posts started two years ago. I thought I would ask for those who contributed to give us an update on how the converted cars are doing. Has anyone slipped in an LS7 yet? If I can get my car sold I may be headed in that direction...

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[Renalicious]

LS7, wow, that's the same engine as in the Z06 right? The 7L 500HP v8? (according to wikipedia hehe). As for the LS1, I'm reading that for it's 5.7L displacement it only puts out a meager 350HP, meh, that's kind of lame. I'd expect something like that to push at least 450 in this day and age =/



I guess that's what superchargers are for <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[jim7]

I still haven't gotten the car into the garage but I'm collecting parts. I bought ZO6 heads, and have dibs on a cam package along with oil pump mod. Also looking at splitter and almost got Kenesis rims, but I was too greedy. Timeline to put it all together is March 08.

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[jim7]

I did a search on Splitters and found Carnewal.com. I thought maybe they might have the adjustable wing as well. My vision for the car is becoming clear. It helps as i just bought Turbo twists in fantastic shape, 11x18 rears. A bit fat for the back so I'll flair the rear wheel wells by an inch and a half. Turbo brakes are on the short list as is a front PU splitter and a rear carbon adjustable wing. This week I bought a pair of Sparco Torino Grey/Black racing seats too. The car is black with a light grey interior so it should look great with all those neat parts. I was going to go pretty stock with the motor. however considering the whole package it would be a shame to skimp on a detail that important so I asked our local LSX engine expert on advice with that and with luck I'll deliver him the the lump with the Z06 heads, a wad of cash and go from there. I think 400 to 450 at the flywheel should suffice. Anyway my New Year resolution is to have the thing on the steet mid April, in time for the first PCA DE skid school day,

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[badberry68]

My LS1 car is still doing fine! I have some minor cooling issues on track days, but soon to be solved. Whoever said 350 hp from an LS1 is not impressive should come out and see one run. It handles great on the straightaways! I drive the car to every event, run it, and drive home. It keeps up with everything in my class and I rarely use full throttle...while short-shifting. I hope someone does an LS7, that would be cool!

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[jim7]

I'm curious what numbers you are running on alignment, camber in particular.





[quote name='badberry68' post='45485' date='Jan 9 2008, 07:25 PM']My LS1 car is still doing fine! I have some minor cooling issues on track days, but soon to be solved. Whoever said 350 hp from an LS1 is not impressive should come out and see one run. It handles great on the straightaways! I drive the car to every event, run it, and drive home. It keeps up with everything in my class and I rarely use full throttle...while short-shifting. I hope someone does an LS7, that would be cool![/quote]

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[rhudeboye]

[quote name='Renalicious' post='44935' date='Dec 21 2007, 08:15 PM']As for the LS1, I'm reading that for it's 5.7L displacement it only puts out a meager 350HP, meh, that's kind of lame.[/quote]



I understand and agree w/ your reasoning. Germany & Japan does a lot more per liter then America. However the weight of the LS1 along w 350 HP is a great accomplishment for Chevy. Thats one swap I would op to do.

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[jim7]

[quote name='rhudeboye' post='45652' date='Jan 13 2008, 07:11 PM']I understand and agree w/ your reasoning. Germany & Japan does a lot more per liter then America. However the weight of the LS1 along w 350 HP is a great accomplishment for Chevy. Thats one swap I would op to do.[/quote]



I thinks its a moot point as how in the heck is 600 hp useable in a 3000 lb car.

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[andre968]

Hi, just finished reading whole thread...



I am trying to decide on doing an ls2 swap with a blower or else doing a 951 style porsche 4 cyl with a giant turbo, etc, etc, for 400rwhp.



Does anyone know of a 994/968 for sale with the swap already done???



I'd rather just buy it all done. People must end up selling these things at some point, right??

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[bob blackwell]

Yes, Andre, I have a friend here in Albuquerque who has done a Chevy V-8 conversion on a 944 who is interested in selling it. He used the LT1 engine and the Renegade Hybrids kit to install it. Second gear is out in the transmission now and the car is pretty rough with worn upholstery and poor paint. His car was in an accident prior to the conversion and he replaced the entire front end (fenders, hood, bumpers, etc.) with a single fiberglasss piece than hinges in the front like a Jag E Type or Triumph Spitfire. He also put fiberglass flares on the rear to allow larger wheels to be used. I have driven it and the torque is impressive. You can contact him at: Luke Stribling, (505) 480-2673. Tell him I referred you if you want. Good luck, Bob Blackwell.

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[flash]

a lot depends on what you expect from a car too - if what you want is merely a brutish thing to toss around, with less finesse, then fine, a big V8 is probably for you - but if you are looking for a balanced machine that revs smoothly and is finely tuned to match the other components of the car, then i think you should work with the power plant it already has



i'm sure the V8 cars are a lot of fun for a bit - that much power is sure to make you grin - but, i think driving it all the time would be a different tale - i've done one of these in a 944, and a bunch of other V8 conversions in other cars - some were really clean, and others were more of a hack job - it all came down to what money the customer had - they were all fun for showing off, and raw power, but in the end, a real beast to drive daily (much like a vette)



every one of them required a LOT of chassis and suspension work to handle the power correctly - our cars have too much rubber in them for the power they have now, let alone any more - every one of them also required a good amount of drivetrain reinforcement and work to keep from blowing things up - like the car mentioned above, transmissions are common things to fail - this is true whenever you start adding a lot of torque, be it via V8 or forced induction



unfortunately, without exception, every V8 conversion i have ever seen ends up being a dilapidated heap in a fairly short time - it was very depressing to see months of work turn into a leaky and broken mess - this may be because most shops don't want to maintain them, and most owners either don't want to pay the shops who do, or lack the skills, time, and resource to do it themselves, or merely lose interest and move on



while this can also be said of turbocharged cars, because they are starting off with the OEM plant, fewer things are changed, hence it tends to stay cleaner a bit longer before falling into that rut



i think it's an intriguing and interesting project concept, but i have yet to see a clean one done properly - there are also not a lot of long term results



there used to be a porsche hybrids board, but it was down as of this morning - the link was:



www.560sec.com/bulletinboard



if you want a big hot V8 porsche, you can probably find a supercharged 928 fairly easily - they are pretty common

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[sker66]

    Flash

..some of what you say is true if the car was done by a non pro without knowledge and proper funding. But i have to disagree with your statement as its to generalised and doesn't apply in every case.

I personally own a moderately modded 951 with Garret BB Turbo, Tial wastegate,electronic boost controller,custom chipped,suspension,etc. Car put down 341HP @ the wheels @ 1.4bar boost. This equates to about 400HP @ the crank. This becomes a totally different car requireing suspension and brake mods.

This was the race fuel setting and i also had a .9 bar for 91 octane for daily driving. This car is a blast to drive but low end torque does suffer with the larger turbo i am running at this time.

On the other hand i have driven two professionally prepared v8 conversions and they are both very....very nice!



You may know one of the guys..............Tony G http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/



I have driven Tony's car and all i can say is that its... Bad to Da Bone!



Great conversion and sooo much fun i can't describe.



Then there is SB Wrench on the Hybrids forum who did a real nice LT1 conversion with power brakes,450HP LT1 with Trick Flow Heads and well sorted. When you drive this car you get the inpression that its a production based car. Very well done by a professional Gear Head!



I will take Tony G's car any day to my modded turbo.......any day!



Then i bought someone elses unfinished LT1 project that was done poorly with inseficient funds and that matches your desciption. I Yanked the conversion and engine and have currently rebuilt the engine to 383 stroker status with TC heads,Comp Cam,etc. Should be running by summer.



You can compare the car i purchased to and old , poorly maintained 951, 968. They feel like cr** compared to a nice sorted car in well maintained condition.



Really depends on build quality and content in every case.



Of coarse its not for everybody. Most people are better suited to buy an existing engineered factory car or a pro build car if they have the coin to do so!

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[flash]

i've seen tony's car in action at a DE i was recently at - not a daily driver for sure, but looks like a real kick to drive



remember that i said it depends a lot on what you expect from a car - personally, i expect a smooth, quiet, comfortable car - squeaks, rattles, hums and buzzes are NOT acceptable - mine is currently up in the air as i have removed the entire rear suspension and torsion assembly, just to get rid of a very small squeak (goes back together in the morning)



i'm not suggesting that a V8 car doesn't run, or that it isn't fun to drive fast - but, to try to drive the car like it was intended when it was designed in OEM form, i think it's going to be a handful - every such car i have ever driven has been - fun on the gas - not so fun stuck in traffic



we could go round and round on this one all day - when i was young, i thought those things were cool, and had a blast building them - then i had to live with them - they became a lot less cool after having to deal with them for years - i tend to keep my cars for a long time, some more than 20 years - i am pretty careful now about getting tangled up with cars like that

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[SILVY968]

I understand and agree. When I was in high school I put a 283 SB Chevy into a 1960 Ford Falcon. I spent all of my money replacing the parts that would break with the increased power. It was a blast to drive, but VERY high maintenance.

When I was 21 I bought a new 911. The quality of the ride and the lack of weekend "must" maintenance kept me from ever going back.

I enjoyed the V8 power shoehorned into a small car, but the trade offs for a DD are too great.

Subtle mods on a basically OEM configuration are more my style...now that I am not willing to spend all of my time fixing a DD. Many, if not all of these radical mods ever seem to be refined automobiles with power, but rather specialized creations that demand an extreme amount of attention.

Brian

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