[sker66]

http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/

Check out the link above.

But..Plan on spending at least an hour as you could spend 3.

I have personally driven Tony's car on the street and it is what motivated me to do my prodject.
Enjoy!

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[flash]

gotta factor in the time too - it's not free, even if you do it yourself - it takes you away from something - that's a good 100 hour job at best - you'll still pay for it, whether it's in jewelry bribes to the car widow, vacations, or expensive stuff for the kids because you ignored them

lots of other stuff to add as well:
bigger brakes - this is not an option when talking about that much power

suspension to handle the extra 100 lbs up front, and additional torque squish, as well as the increased speeds

chassis bracing to handle the extra loads applied - we already see that need as soon as you start pushing the car,
even in stock configuration

still, even after adding all that up, and likely ending up at about 15-20k, it's still a LOT less expensive than anything else that would have that performance level

i worry about the tranny though - i am already seeing signs of wear on the lower gears with the power i have now - the ratios are wrong for a V8 too, if longevity is any concern - those engines don't like to sit at 3k and up forever - they really like 2k on the freeway - a bigger ring and pinion would be something i would have to figure out in order to do it - that or an entirely different box that was built for a V8, which would then mean a driveshaft and all that entails

sounds like a blast to drive in the short term, especially on the track, but not for street - i may yet do this, but i would want to start with a basket case chassis, and resolve all the stuff so i could use it on the street

i will probably be doing the race car first though

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[968LS1]

Well I have been driving/tracking my ls1 converted 968 (now stroked LS2) for over 6 years. The chassis had 127K when I did the conversion and I have put over 25K since then. I have run both 5 and 6 speed transmissions and the Turbo S 5 speed with a NA 5th gear is what I prefer. I have not had one transmission related failure in 11 years of driving V8 converted water coolers; I have hurt some CV joints (mainly caused by the bolts coming loose or a cut boot) but since adding a torque arm on the transmission and safety wiring the bolts it has not been an issue. The car has Moton shocks, Racers Edge bushing/bearings and I track it frequently, I see no fatigue issues in the chassis and inspect the car before and after every event. Big brakes are definitely a must if you do any track events; I converted to 14" StopTech front brakes this year and and it was a HUGE improvement over the 993tt setup. The rotor and hats are 6-7lbs lighter than the factory 993tt as well. My cars is not as track oriented as Tony's but I have no problem running with 996TT,GT3,C6 Z06,430 Ferrari and several other HP cars and I do it for a lot less. The V8 does transform the car and I would never go back. My car is very comfortable to drive on the street(Motons make a huge difference form track to street when they are adjusted); not to mention 25mpg highway mileage. The city mileage is not so good because I can't seem to keep my foot out of it! I have built several 944ls1 cars and they are all still running with no broken tranny's or chassis's so from my experience they are pretty tough and can handle the conversion. I hope this info helps anyone contemplating the conversion as it has proven to me to be fast, reliable and street able if done right.





<!--quoteo(post=78531:date=Aug 23 2009, 08:33 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Aug 23 2009, 08:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->gotta factor in the time too - it's not free, even if you do it yourself - it takes you away from something - that's a good 100 hour job at best - you'll still pay for it, whether it's in jewelry bribes to the car widow, vacations, or expensive stuff for the kids because you ignored them

lots of other stuff to add as well:
bigger brakes - this is not an option when talking about that much power

suspension to handle the extra 100 lbs up front, and additional torque squish, as well as the increased speeds

chassis bracing to handle the extra loads applied - we already see that need as soon as you start pushing the car,
even in stock configuration

still, even after adding all that up, and likely ending up at about 15-20k, it's still a LOT less expensive than anything else that would have that performance level

i worry about the tranny though - i am already seeing signs of wear on the lower gears with the power i have now - the ratios are wrong for a V8 too, if longevity is any concern - those engines don't like to sit at 3k and up forever - they really like 2k on the freeway - a bigger ring and pinion would be something i would have to figure out in order to do it - that or an entirely different box that was built for a V8, which would then mean a driveshaft and all that entails

sounds like a blast to drive in the short term, especially on the track, but not for street - i may yet do this, but i would want to start with a basket case chassis, and resolve all the stuff so i could use it on the street

i will probably be doing the race car first though<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

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[flash]

i too have done a lot of chevy small block conversions, in all sorts of cars - i love project cars and doing stuff like this - but i also realize what it means long term

i own a 6 liter now - they DO NOT like to run at 3k+ for extended periods - it doesn't take long to start to see the issues pop up - this is not something to do on the street if you expect to get a long life from it - if that doesn't matter though, that's fine - you'll get 50k out of it

as for the chassis, i guess you would need to drive a car with a reinforced chassis to see how much of a difference it would make to the ability to get the power to the ground and through the corners - guys are already seeing what some minor reinforcement does - start talking about going as fast as a V8 can push you, and you will see that chassis flex become much more of a factor

not sure how you have gotten past the tranny problem, and i'm glad you have been fortunate, but i can say that i have seen 6 blown ones myself - perhaps you just don't drive it that hard - i figure i have about a year left if i am lucky on the box i have now - the input shaft and first gear area definitely showing signs of slop building - it won't be long before i lose one if i keep pushing it as hard as i do now

again, i'm not saying it isn't a cool thing - it just isn't a free lunch - i'm definitely no purist, and frankly think it's a great idea if truly done right

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[968LS1]

Flash,

LS engines are NOT traditional small block Chevy's; not sure I understand your point about the LS series of engines not liking or being able to handle running at 3K for extended periods, seem like they handles it fine to me as I am going on 6 years of hard use in my 968. My Yukon 06' has 211K on in and sees 3K cruising at 80 mph almost everyday as I travel for living: I have yet to encounter any issues with the engine; what failures do you see due to extended 3K use?. A direct comparison of the 3.0 968 engine VS LS V8 would not be fair as the technology has come so far that the LS has a definite advantage, with no timing belts, varocam, etc the LS requires less maintainance cost and greater reliability. Sure if my car had a full cage it would be stiffer and I would notice a difference but my chassis is still tight and puts power down well enough to spank most of the cars I have run against in PCA group 5; I do have a strut tower brace and a harness bar. I am sure the Cabs are a lot more flexible without the top so stiffening would be a must, but I would not track a cab or convert one for track use for that reason. Flash where do you drive your car so hard to wear out the tranny if you don't run it on the track? My first LT1/944 conversion had a full cage and was stiffer but I did not want a cage in the 968 as I built it to drive on the street more that the 944 . I push the car hard enough to run consistent 1:33's at Road Atlanta and if you check out what good lap times are there you will see that I am not just puttering around in my flexible flyer. As I said before, I have yet to see any of the 6 cars I have converted to LS1 have a transmission issue, your post implies that they break easily with the V8 is just not true and I base my claim on 11 years of actual experience with these conversions. I even asked a friend, Mike Gokey, who has done over 15 of these conversions and he has not had any transmission failures on the cars he has built. Proper service of the gearbox is essential for longevity and I am sure in a few more seasons I will open mine up and check it out for evaluation. So believe what you will, but my experience is that the transmissions are not the fuse you claim they are, the LS engines will withstand lots of hard use and my chassis hasn't twisted into a pretzel but if I encounter any issues I will let the community know.



<!--quoteo(post=78539:date=Aug 23 2009, 11:40 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Aug 23 2009, 11:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->i too have done a lot of chevy small block conversions, in all sorts of cars - i love project cars and doing stuff like this - but i also realize what it means long term

i own a 6 liter now - they DO NOT like to run at 3k+ for extended periods - it doesn't take long to start to see the issues pop up - this is not something to do on the street if you expect to get a long life from it - if that doesn't matter though, that's fine - you'll get 50k out of it

as for the chassis, i guess you would need to drive a car with a reinforced chassis to see how much of a difference it would make to the ability to get the power to the ground and through the corners - guys are already seeing what some minor reinforcement does - start talking about going as fast as a V8 can push you, and you will see that chassis flex become much more of a factor

not sure how you have gotten past the tranny problem, and i'm glad you have been fortunate, but i can say that i have seen 6 blown ones myself - perhaps you just don't drive it that hard - i figure i have about a year left if i am lucky on the box i have now - the input shaft and first gear area definitely showing signs of slop building - it won't be long before i lose one if i keep pushing it as hard as i do now

again, i'm not saying it isn't a cool thing - it just isn't a free lunch - i'm definitely no purist, and frankly think it's a great idea if truly done right<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

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[flash]

i also have a yukon with the 6.0 - 80mph is hardly 3k - more like about 2.5 - at 3k the engine is clearly working - at 4k it sounds like it is about to come apart, and heats up pretty quickly if held there for long - the final drive for the V8 should be somewhere around 3.40 max, and preferably about 3.25, not the 3.778 we have now - besides the high revving in final gear, the issues with first and second would be a real concern - these boxes fail in low gears on the track - not as bad as others, but they still fail - at a minimum i would put in the close ratio gears

what are the gears like in a 928?

i have taken mine on the track, though only a few times - i drive it hard though whenever i do drive it though

as for cabs vs hardtops, the hardtop has just as much flexibility down low and in the front as the cab does, and in fact more, since the cab has an extra floor pan, reinforced rockers, and a reinforced windshield frame - the only place the cab flexes more than the hardtop is at the rear of the doors - i've gotten rid of almost all of that - there isn't a lot of difference now, and i have had people say it feels like a stiff hardtop - the stiffer i make it, the more i am able to stay on the throttle - bracing is relative to load - the faster you go, the more bracing needed - the V8 would make for increased speeds, and therefore need more bracing than a car with less power - this is the case for any car, not just the 968

as for my trans, i bang gears pretty hard, rarely using much clutch - makes for fast shifts, but hard on the trans - again, this is the case with just about any car, not just the 968 - i can already tell the wear is there after my 25k miles of driving - it's not bad yet, but i can tell it isn't crisp and new either - this would only get worse under the increased torque loads of a V8

again, i am not saying that this isn't cool, just that it isn't a transparent swap either - there are a lot of reasons to do it, and not that many not to, none of them being insurmountable, just not particularly cheap

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[Big Dave]

968LS1.
Thanks for your replys + feedback on your car.
VERY VERY helpfull.

It was myself asking on rennlist aswell...

Just out of interest, How did you overcome the removal of the brake "booster / servo" unit.??
Do you have some form of booster system set up.?? Or are you just runing non servo,d brakes...

As you may be aware, my car being a UK car, is RHD, NON A/C...

PS the chassis is already sorted , ie full race suspension set up , bushes etc etc etc as are the brakes 993TT fronts +968M030 rears.

Could you shed any light on possible challenges i might encounter in my possible install..??? This might be a "how long is a piece of string" , type question...

I have a long list of questions ide like to ask, ill pm you when i get round to deciding weather its the right thing to do[ fitting the engine] that is...I dont want to wate your valuable time if i dont do the swap....

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[968LS1]

Big Dave,

Glad I could help and feel free to pm with any questions. On the brakes I use a dual Master cylinder setup with a balance bar, similar to a Tilton unit and I change the pedal ratio to 6.5:1. I have done 2 other conversion with Hydra boost and one with an electric power master cylinder. Both work well but take some dialing in. I prefer the manual set up as it offer me much better modulation and feel. I can pm some pics of the setup to you but I will have to take them so let me know. The toughest challenge is hood clearance and the headers; I have a jig for the headers but they are for LHD so they would not work for you. The conversion is not that hard but i have done several so I am a little jaded. Basically the oil pan, engine mounts and headers are the critical elements; much like a house if you get eh foundation correct the rest will fall into place. PM me you specific concerns and I will tell you what I know.

Flash,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on LS engines series. LS series engines are far superior than a 968 3.0 engine in reliability, power and reduced maintainance; they and are widely used in Grand Am and ALMS with great success and very few documented failures. What reliability issues have you had with your Yukon? If it is heating up under load you have an issue that should be checked out; I pull a 4500lb boat with mine and it never gets hot (mine is a lowly 5.3 liter). I don't know anything about the 928 gearboxes so I can't answer concerning their ratios. The final drive in my 951 trans is 3.375 with a .73 NA 5th gear cruising at 75 is 2483rpm vs 2970 in your 968 so in theory your engine is working harder to achieve the same constant speed.. Shifting a synchronized gearbox without using the clutch is asking for trouble, hell if you had the V8 you could shift normal, save your gearbox and accelerate a whole lot faster. I don't rip gears or bang shifts and I guess that is why I haven't torn up a gearbox. Chassis flex is in all cars and yes mine has some, but it has proven to be plenty robust to handle what I use it for and I don't see any signs of metal tearing or separating; I have found it unsafe and reckless to drive any car anywhere near the limit I can push one on a racetrack. With all this said, no conversion is perfect and I have done several but the LS'944/968 is the best performance vs cost value I and many others have found.


<!--quoteo(post=78567:date=Aug 24 2009, 10:55 AM:name=Big Dave)-->QUOTE (Big Dave @ Aug 24 2009, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->968LS1.
Thanks for your replys + feedback on your car.
VERY VERY helpfull.

It was myself asking on rennlist aswell...

Just out of interest, How did you overcome the removal of the brake "booster / servo" unit.??
Do you have some form of booster system set up.?? Or are you just runing non servo,d brakes...

As you may be aware, my car being a UK car, is RHD, NON A/C...

PS the chassis is already sorted , ie full race suspension set up , bushes etc etc etc as are the brakes 993TT fronts +968M030 rears.

Could you shed any light on possible challenges i might encounter in my possible install..??? This might be a "how long is a piece of string" , type question...

I have a long list of questions ide like to ask, ill pm you when i get round to deciding weather its the right thing to do[ fitting the engine] that is...I dont want to wate your valuable time if i dont do the swap....<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

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[PorscheDude]

I think I'd rather a LSx conversion rather than a boosted 3 liter.
I've read lots of great stories about these cars once they are sorted.

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[flash]

i don't know that we actually disagree all that much - we both think it's great power and can work in a 968 - i think it may come down to a standard of acceptability - i am extremely strict and demanding - i won't drive a car with tires half worn, or makes rattles and such, is dented, yada yada - i even wax my engine bays on all of my cars (just did the denali day before yesterday)

i am the same way about conversions, and i've done plenty of them - sure we did some that were really fast hack jobs that we ran for a weekend just to beat a particular car, and then scrapped - but the others were full on street cars that had to be absolutely perfect - for the 968 i would accept nothing less than OEM quality standard - i would expect all wiring and such to be properly dressed, no rattles or squeaks, no strain on components, etc

i am sure it can be done - no question - to do it right, all i am saying is that it won't be cheap or quick - in the end though, you would have one heck of a car

if i get bored enough with the power i have, i may yet do this - however, i will definitely be raising the ratios of 1st and 2nd, as well as raising the ring and pinion ratio - i've sheared off too may 1st gears in my day, and snapped way too may ring gears to do otherwise - maybe the box can handle it if you nurse it, but that is not why i would have this car - i do like the idea of the taller final gear

as for the engine in my yukon, it is perfect - had it checked out fully twice, since in have blown 2 transmissions, 2 front diffs, and a transfer case - it is indeed a very strong powerplant - however, it definitely warms up at 4k, though not horribly - i don't keep it there for too long though, and you can hear how out of balance the engine is - i've heard the same thing in almost every stock chevy small block, which is why if i did this, i would tear down the engine and balance everything - i still think it is a great power plant, but has its limits that need to be considered, which is why they made so many different versions of the engine, transmissions and rear ends in the cars they built

i think i need to ring up tony and take his out for a spin

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[968LS1]

Flash,

I am much the same way about making a conversion OE quality and reliability, all of my engine control wiring passes through the original Porsche harness boot on the firewall. Let me tell you unpinning the harness so I could use the factory boot was a bitch but in the end it looks OE. I use the factory DME relay to control the fuel pump and ECU signal so any trouble shooting would be in the same location as the OE wiring. Concerning transmission ratios, I have done a lot of research and it was interesting to discover how close the 951 gear ratios were to Tremec TKO 5 speed transmission that are typically used V8 engines.
Tremec-3.27-1.97-1.34-1.00-.68 Typically run with 3.55 final drive or higher.
951 3.50-2.05-1.40-1.03-.85 S2-5th .78 NA-5th .73
As you can see the ratios are very close, and with a 3.375 final drive the gearing is pretty well matched for a V8.

Changing the first and second gear ratios in the 951 or 968 gearboxes would be difficult as 1st and 2nd are made on the main shaft and are not removable.

I tried for 2 years to get a custom R&P for my 6 speed but it was cost prohibitive; I even put a .60 6th gear in the 6 speed but the rest of the ratios were just too low to make good use of the V8 torque. Eventually I went the 5 speed route and it has worked great for me and many others. The 5 speeds are not that expensive so I have a spare Turbo S box that I paid $1300 for so if I do break one it is not a high dollar fix.

I hope you will drive Tony's car; it is more of a track/race car but I think you will see the the transmission is up to the task and the power is intoxicating.








<!--quoteo(post=78617:date=Aug 24 2009, 10:35 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Aug 24 2009, 10:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->i don't know that we actually disagree all that much - we both think it's great power and can work in a 968 - i think it may come down to a standard of acceptability - i am extremely strict and demanding - i won't drive a car with tires half worn, or makes rattles and such, is dented, yada yada - i even wax my engine bays on all of my cars (just did the denali day before yesterday)

i am the same way about conversions, and i've done plenty of them - sure we did some that were really fast hack jobs that we ran for a weekend just to beat a particular car, and then scrapped - but the others were full on street cars that had to be absolutely perfect - for the 968 i would accept nothing less than OEM quality standard - i would expect all wiring and such to be properly dressed, no rattles or squeaks, no strain on components, etc

i am sure it can be done - no question - to do it right, all i am saying is that it won't be cheap or quick - in the end though, you would have one heck of a car

if i get bored enough with the power i have, i may yet do this - however, i will definitely be raising the ratios of 1st and 2nd, as well as raising the ring and pinion ratio - i've sheared off too may 1st gears in my day, and snapped way too may ring gears to do otherwise - maybe the box can handle it if you nurse it, but that is not why i would have this car - i do like the idea of the taller final gear

as for the engine in my yukon, it is perfect - had it checked out fully twice, since in have blown 2 transmissions, 2 front diffs, and a transfer case - it is indeed a very strong powerplant - however, it definitely warms up at 4k, though not horribly - i don't keep it there for too long though, and you can hear how out of balance the engine is - i've heard the same thing in almost every stock chevy small block, which is why if i did this, i would tear down the engine and balance everything - i still think it is a great power plant, but has its limits that need to be considered, which is why they made so many different versions of the engine, transmissions and rear ends in the cars they built

i think i need to ring up tony and take his out for a spin<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

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[flash]

there are ring and pinion gears out there, but they aren't cheap (about $3k) - 1st would definitely have to change for me - i do harsh take-offs on a pretty regular basis, and don't want to change that - 2nd isn't horrible, but as it is tied to 1st, a bit higher would be better - a closer 3 through 6 is available, though again pricey, and 6 is still too low - the 5 speed may be the only way to get there, as there are likely more variations floating around, but i'd like to keep the 6 - with the larger axles and shafts of the 968 turbo box (which the factory deemed necessary in order to handle the torque) i think i could end up with a stronger box

i have probably blown up 2 dozen transmissions over the years, and about the same number of rear diffs - i am definitely one to push the envelope on those - if i dive into a conversion, i have to make sure i can't break it the first time i do a 3k clutch dump - that's exactly what happened to the 944 conversion we did - grenaded the turbo box first launch - blew the second one up right behind it - snapped 3 axles and a couple of CVs too, before we figured out a different setup

337 final isn't bad, but i'd like to see 325 in 6th and 337 in 5th with 4th a 1:1 gear

i'll poke around and see what can be done about the box - i know exactly who to call on this - should make for some interesting research whichever way it goes

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[968gene]

Group Buy!!!

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[94SilverCab]

Yeah Flash,

How much of a discount do we get if we buy 10 OE Quality LS1 conversions...all completed in a workman like fashion, no dust, wire pulled and zip tied and waxed engine bays???

Jay

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[Anchorman]

I'm in.

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[Big Dave]

<!--quoteo(post=78648:date=Aug 25 2009, 06:35 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Aug 25 2009, 06:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->there are ring and pinion gears out there, but they aren't cheap (about $3k) - 1st would definitely have to change for me - i do harsh take-offs on a pretty regular basis, and don't want to change that - 2nd isn't horrible, but as it is tied to 1st, a bit higher would be better - a closer 3 through 6 is available, though again pricey, and 6 is still too low - the 5 speed may be the only way to get there, as there are likely more variations floating around, but i'd like to keep the 6 - with the larger axles and shafts of the 968 turbo box (which the factory deemed necessary in order to handle the torque) i think i could end up with a stronger box

i have probably blown up 2 dozen transmissions over the years, and about the same number of rear diffs - i am definitely one to push the envelope on those - if i dive into a conversion, i have to make sure i can't break it the first time i do a 3k clutch dump - that's exactly what happened to the 944 conversion we did - grenaded the turbo box first launch - blew the second one up right behind it - snapped 3 axles and a couple of CVs too, before we figured out a different setup

337 final isn't bad, but i'd like to see 325 in 6th and 337 in 5th with 4th a 1:1 gear

i'll poke around and see what can be done about the box - i know exactly who to call on this - should make for some interesting research whichever way it goes<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Flash.
It seems your a bit hard on your cars..
Personally i drive with sympathy for all the components on my car. I know how much these things cost....
Thats NOT to say i dont use the car to the full, just NOT seemingly as aggressive as you.. Thankfully...

PS what sort of "fun" do you get from these aggressive take offs. I guess your a traffic light racer.????

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[flash]

i am hard on the cars for sure - as for the "fun", i like to go fast, all the time - the 968 is purely a toy for me - i only drive it fast - i don't take it to the grocery store - i don't commute in it - i get in, mash the pedal, and whip the steering wheel, and it had better not break - i keep it in top condition though, so i don't expect any issues - that being said, i have already exploded a clutch

i tend to think of cars as consumable items - i keep the toys for a long time (the last one was for over 20 years) but i use them up completely - this is a relatively inexpensive car, and i have no issue with replacing things when they wear out, but i don't want them to break under the use i have in mind

the M3 probably gets the least abuse, but that is because it bores me as a car - even it has been out on the track though

the denali sees hard work too - it has towed the race trailer back and forth coast to coast a few times now - i don't slow down either - 80mph uphill is not unheard of - when something breaks, i reinforce it

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[ds968]

Some dude has a 944 with a LT1 engine in it ( it's for sale and he's asking $ 12 k for it ) , and if that by itself was not sufficiently bastardized , he had this hood emblem custom made for the car :

   

Awww, my eyes , my eyes are burning !!

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[Rap]

Did you drive it?

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[ds968]

No, I'm a little scared of the owner - as you can see by the eerie shadow in the photo, he's headless . No Sleepy Hollow Porsche for me !

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