[flash]

Design 1 Racing announces its "Hardware Only" supercharger kit.



Ever since discussions about supercharging the 968 started over 6 years ago, there were those who wanted big output numbers. In designing the Supercharger Kit, safety and reliability became the primary design factors, and while that has proven to be more than satisfactory for most people, there are those who still want more. Design 1 Racing is not prepared to produce a kit that makes higher output, as the conditions are too varying to have any real repeatability and reliability. Still, we realize that some people want more, and while we do not want to get into that, we do want to provide for those who want to take this upon themselves.



This kit is tailored for the owner that wants more out of the Supercharger Kit than the standard setup provides.



This kit allows the owner to purchase the Rotrex head unit themselves, which has not been modified to limit boost, like the one in the Design 1 Racing kit has been, and then do their own tuning, whether by reprogramming the Motronic themselves, or by using a stand-alone system of their choosing, and of course adding larger injectors. This opens the door for up to 350hp!!!



This kit comes complete with everything needed to mount the Rotrex head unit, and connect it to the car. It has every part the standard kit has, and comes complete with full illustrated instructions. All that is missing is the head unit itself, larger injectors, and the tuning.



Club Sports, or cars without the Air Conditioning will need the Design 1 Racing AC Delete kit.



For details and more information, consult the Design 1 Racing website.



Price for the Hardware Only kit is $2395



For the time being you will need to contact us directly, as it is not on the Design 1 Racing website yet. It's probably best anyway, as you will likely have questions and such.

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[Cloud9...68]

I think I just heard a blood-curdling cry of anguish coming from Australia from one Craig Woodman, over the mountain of grief, anguish, not to mention money, this would have saved him!

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[rxter]

Might this help us get closer to a run of flash hp-limited kits for dummies? That's the one I need. No tuning necessary. Install and stomp on the gas baby!

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[flash]

that kit is already here, and we are now taking orders. see the thread about batch 3.

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[mrmister]

Would I need a new head unit, or is there some way for me to take off the boost limiter?



What is your opinion of adding an intercooler? I noticed on the dyno, each run produced lower numbers as things heated up.



What is required to program the Motronic? I am tech savvy and good with numbers, is this within reach, or best left to a professional?



Didn't you mention 400hp was possible with the rotrex? What would that entail? I remember reading about a 430hp Ninemeister supercharged 968 at 11psi boost still using motronic. They had 480hp using Motec. This was 6 years ago, anyone still running these cars, or did they blow up?





Thanks for all the hard work

Jared

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[flash]

i never said 400 was possible. while 400 hp is possible with the rotrex on some engines, it won't be likely on the 968. i would put the max at 350-360 unless you were to overspin the unit and blow it up. i just had this conversation with them today.



also, numbers are just numbers. it's the area under the curve that makes the car fast, so don't get hung up on a single number. i can build a setup that would make 450hp, no problem. it would do it for about 3 minutes.



as for the runs heating up and causing lower numbers, it's true that heat will do that, but proper airflow and cooling should keep things stable. i did not experience fall off on the runs i did, and i did as many as 25 in one session.



reprogramming the motronic isn't all that difficult, but it won't be able to keep up at much more boost than already in the standard kit. doing it to be street legal is another matter. you can forget all about passing smog with anything different than what you have. the certification is only for the existing setup. it won't pass with the things needed for more power. you might be able to nurse and squeeze another pound or so out of it using the motronic, but that's about it. it just isn't quick enough or have enough data points. you'll really need to go stand alone to get past about 325.



intercoolers work. how big, when and where to add one is the tricky part. those who know centrifugal units know that there is a point where it starts to make sense, but below that it doesn't. it will take quite a bit of testing to come up with the correct intercooler for whatever boost level you seek. too big and it will actually cost you power. too small and you've wasted your time and money.



boost numbers are irrelevant by themselves. boost is a factor of intake and exhaust as much as it is impeller speed. you won't make 11psi with the rotrex, unless you choke it down so much that you also end up overheating it. 7psi is about all you will get. that's wide open. when you open up the intake and exhaust, you get more flow and power, but less boost.



you have to choose carefully about this. this is the line you can easily cross that will take the car off the street and put it only on the track.



this kit is intended for race cars only. it is not intended for anything to be driven on the street.



that being said, ring me up and we'll see what makes sense.

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[mrmister]

More and more this car is becoming a race car. The paint used to be near perfect, and the ride somewhat comfortable. At some point driving across the country and back to RSbarn a line was crossed. Right now the car is no fun to drive in the city, and I don't really need another car for daily use anyways. On the track I am killing it in the corners, but being killed on long straights. I am in right in the middle where it isn't a good street car, and leaves a little to be desired as a track car.



All that being said, I love that I can drive this car to the track, thrash it, and drive home. I did 8 full track days last year and didn't do anything more than change the oil and brake pads. Now if I could keep the reliability and add power to make me more competitive...well that would be awesome.



It might be best for me to wait for someone more qualified to take a crack at this before I do anything.

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[Eric_Oz_S2]

The tuning isn't that difficult, it just takes a lot of time.



You will need an Ostrich 2.0 Emulator and TunerProRT. To get a base map you need a EPROM reader - although I can email you a early (or late) 968 .bin file if you need it.



Tuning requires a data logger - I use an Innovate LM-2, with simulated NBO2 out. The WBO2 simply screws into the factory NBO2 bung. The trick is the PT fuel maps which normally run closed loop (keep lambda=1). You can either ditch the Cat and run the non-cat maps in the DME using a jumper across the variant switch with resistor and therefore make the AFRs whatever you want at any load, or you can reduce the lambda control "off" rpm and the corresponding back "on" rpm. Not sure where these are on the 968 though.



You will probably need larger injectors for anything over 5psi. The S2 has a fuel quality switch and a corresponding adjustment map in the DME. For the S2 you simply scale the injector factor to compensate for the proportionally larger injectors. You may also need to adjust the injector dead time maps.



Idle fuel is adjusted independently of the injector factor and is simply adjusted until the AFRs settle at around 14.



PT timing can probably remain as the maps are based on load and rpm which is somewhat independent of boost (if boost is higher, more air enters through <acronym title='mass air flow'>MAF</acronym> and a higher value in the table is used). If the boost is significant though, you will be at the top of the load while still in part throttle and may need to reduce timing slightly - particularly at the torque peak where knock is most susceptible.



<acronym title='wide open throttle'>WOT</acronym> timing will need to be retarded (again especially near the new boosted engine torque peak). The increasing boost with RPM will cause the torque peak rpm to increase. In the S2 it increases from perhaps 4500 to 5500 with 6 psi peak boost. This means less timing at 5000-6000 rpm (especially for track use).



<acronym title='wide open throttle'>WOT</acronym> fuel will need to increase roughly proportionally with boost. It isn't quite an exact ratio as the engine characteristics also change under boost (eg intake and exhaust manifold efficiency changes, as does temperature, timing adjustments, etc). Start rich and then aim for around AFR12 under boost (normally about 3500rpm+).



Hope this helps with your deliberations.

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[Dubai944]

[quote name='mrmister' timestamp='1328152677' post='121329'] I remember reading about a 430hp Ninemeister supercharged 968 at 11psi boost still using motronic. They had 480hp using Motec. This was 6 years ago, anyone still running these cars, or did they blow up?

[/quote]



I believe those were extrapolated flywheel figures not whp. Based on my experiences with superchargers so far, I personally think they had a very 'happy' dyno.

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[flash]

i was afraid this would turn into a long discussion of what to do and not about the kit. oh well - no worries



he is in california, so no chance of deleting or disabling the cat, or using the jumper, and having it pass smog. it would have to be a track only car, which is what this kit is intended for.



the S2 DME programming does not appear to be the same as the 968 and idle mixture becomes a problem. it's really fat when you bump up injectors, regardless of where you set the map. there is something else going on there.



timing maps are almost certainly very different between the S2 and 968. the single resonant manifold of the S2 would change things, as would the smaller valves and ports. the lack of variocam would throw everything off too.



by the way, unless somebody has recently done it, the tunerpro file does not have all the maps for the 968.



beyond about 6lbs or so you will need to go stand alone. the processing speed of the motronic can't keep up and there aren't enough data points available, which together would create dangerous conditions at higher rpms.



there are a lot of other things to consider when increasing boost too. head gasket choice, crankcase pressure relief, fuel pump, yada yada. slippery slope



yes, it can be done. that's why i am offering the hardware kit. guys who track the car want more. i just don't want people to go thinking it's easy or cheap.



but racing never is.

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[Eric_Oz_S2]

Flash - certainly not easy and certainly not cheap. Value for money - your (full) kit wins hands down.



My comments were aimed at a track car as per the intention of the hardware only kit. Otherwise you would just go for the full kit wouldn't you?



I have 968 tunerpro .xdf that covers the main maps - can't recall if it the early or late DME. Nevermind - the maps are easy to find, and the fuel and timing maps easy to identify.

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[flash]

yeah - the problem lies in those who think they can do it and drive the car to the track, rather than trailer it. there is a point at which it just becomes problematic. this has been the case with 100% of the cars that have sought higher boost and bigger numbers. that's exactly why i limited my kit where i did. for whatever reason people seem to ignore the realities and think they will be ok. then they build the car and blow it up or have real problems with it all the way.



yes, you can get a lot more power. don't plan to drive it on the street.



but, if you want only a bit more, you can probably work it out and not give up too much.



the injectors were a real limiting factor, and that's what ultimately set the boost at 4.9psi. i have them maxxed out. but, even if i were able to supply more fuel, a bit over 6psi is the reliable limit of the engine. the seals and such are failure points that would need to be addressed. the motronic is too lame too.



rods would definitely come into play at higher boost levels. i won't even think about raising boost until i deal with that.



just a note on limits: at 7500rpm the 90mm pulley is making 104000 rpm at the head unit. that is 104%. it can't go any higher. that is 7psi wide open. currently the full kit limits redline to 6700 which is only a bit over 90%. with an 80mm pulley the redline goes down to 6700.



getting more power out of the engine than that, and you toss all reliability out the window. it becomes a track only car. you can't drive it to the track, and expect it to get you home. it won't be particularly civilized down low either.



i also think the numbers out there are optimistic. extrapolating forward from the wheels is bad math. there is no fixed percentage of drivetrain loss. you have to actually measure it. i've seen it vary as much as double in factor. it all depends on things like wheel weights, tire weights, flywheel weights, yada yada. heck, you even need to calibrate the speedometer and tach to get it right. the real numbers are often lower than extrapolated numbers, and almost never higher.



there are something like 142 maps for the 968, almost all of which come into play (i'll have to go back and check again to be sure just how many there are). some of the missing maps are critical to higher load part throttle conditions



how many do you have in your tuner pro file? i don't have nearly that many in the latest tuner pro file i have.

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[miked]

Eric, oz 2

do have fuel maps per say, for a link map setup running 55 pd injs, boosted 3.0 I would like to set up my fuel maps on my controller, but havent the slightest idea on how to program it, etc. etc.

currently run the link piggyback map setup on my 968.

sorry for the hijack.

thanks,

Mike

bbmkks@aol.com

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[flash]

as a note on tuning properly, it took about 140 pulls on the dyno and about another 20 hours or so of street tuning to get it right. i probably could have gotten away with about 60 pulls, but we had to figure out a few weird things about the motronic first.



i'm still not done though, and plan to address a small spot on the curve that i think i can make better.

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[Cloud9...68]

Cool stuff. Just one quick question. In addition to the other factors that need to be taken into account to run at higher boost levels, I assume the compression would have to be lowered through the use of new pistons, right?

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[flash]

nope. sure, you can do that, and then add more boost, and ultimately get a LOT more power, but it isn't necessary.



cubic dollars

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[craigawoodman]

For those thinking about an intercooler, you either have to do something in the engine bay (like mine) or start cutting holes for piping.



I agree with Flash, the thing that stuffs me currently is the idle - but this is in part the lighter flywheel and the fact that when initially tuned, it did not have a bonnet/hood and could not be street driven. After the latest round of mods it will hopefully be better - but lets wait and see.



If you were looking for a track day solution, go for an after market ECU and this kit - it has taken me lots of $$ and time to try and get the other kit to come close to working (with an aftermarket ECU, etc). The issue is the belt slip.



This would have been the best option for me, but timing is everything and some of us are stuborn mules.

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[MC968CS]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FAU0pfXHTY[/media]



ha ha. Hey as an aside, hope to see you at Bathurst again this year Craig.



Flash, this looks a great option for the track guys who want forced induction, good on you.

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[craigawoodman]

Mark,



At this stage, not going to Bathurst at Easter, but might do the Drive Bathurst event in November. It is too far to go for 5 runs around the track.



The motorsport over here is crappy - the one track is being upgraded until May.

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[Cloud9...68]

Craig,



Just curious - after all you've been through with your SC, do you wish you had gone the turbo route instead? Probably woudn't have cost any more. Or are you concerned about the lag?

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