[Chris Vais]

Maintaining an extensive wine list, of high end wines is a significant cost to a restaurant. The cost of procuring the wine, the cost of proper storage and cost of a sommelier whose responsibility it is to select the wine for the cellar, but also to guide restaurant guests to an appropriate selection. It ain't cheap, so when a party walks into a restaurant with a bottle  $25 Cab they bought at Costco, the restaurant is going to recoup some of loss they incur from not selling wine from their cellar. If I had a cellar full of $300 bottles of Cab and you want me open your $25 bottle, I'd charge you appropriately.

 

Most restaurants will waive your corkage for that $25 bottle  you bring in, if you also select something off of the wine list.

 

Wine by the glass is another cost that needs to covered. There are 4 decent pours in a 750ml bottle. The price of a glass of wine is 1/2 the wholesale cost of the bottle. If they sell two glasses they have recovered the whole sale cost of the bottle, if the sell the third and fourth glass they make money, if they don't the half empty bottles typically go home with the wait staff at the end of day. It is rarely, if ever, held over.

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[ds968]

While I understand that, and do appreciate the fact that maintaining an extensive and expensive wine list is a heavy burden and cost for a restaurant, I dont know a single person who is drawn to , and goes to a restaurant because of its wine list .. for me, its not even in the top three considerations of choosing a restaurant, but as I said, I dont know anyone else who does . So to my thinking , its entirerely up to the restaurant as to what investment they want to make in wine, but they should not have any expectations that their customers will buy a single bottle or even a glass , theyre there for the food first and foremost , for the ambiance , the service , etc.. wine is just a nice and convenient thing to accompany the meal , but to make it difficult and expensive for patrons to bring their own selection, or make the restaurants wine a compulsory purchase is both off putting and ill-conceived, IMO. Sure it works, otherwise restaurants would not invest as much as they do in wine, but hey if youre in the business to sell wine and find every way to push it on to your customers perhaps you should open a wine bar, not a restaurant which has to rely on wine sales to make ends meet . Actually most rely on liquor / cocktails for the largest profit margin . On the other side of the coin of youre a diner and take a bottle of $ 25 wine to The French Laundry , or Per Se , or Alinea, or any given comparable epicurean tour de force places ( which do charge those 175 + corkage fees ) you deserve all the abuse you might get , lol.

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[Rap]

Dan you know me. While determining which restaurant to go to here at home we do consider the wine list. This is not the final or only determinant but it certainly is a factor. On New Years Eve the restaurant we selected had an ok wine list. But boy was I annoyed that they hadn’t taught our server about the appropriate way to serve wine. Pouring a new bottle of wine into the same glasses, even if it was the same wine and not allowing for a taste incensed me. Of course being the patient progressive liberal that I am I zinged her on the tip.

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[Roboman]

Im wondering if there a threshold where diners are going to say enough is enough and just stop patronizing these onerous establishments ? So far, this does not seem to be the case because with as many restaurants as are closing an at alarming rate here due to the extraordinary cost of maintaining a business in this area, the prestige restaurants are still booked solid, typically months in advance.

 

I think you vote with your feet Dan, there must be other good venues in town.  One goes to a good restaurant for a good experience, and that won't be the case if you feel you're being ripped off.  I'm amazed at those prices for corkage and wonder what the food is like and the final bill per head. 

We are both vegetarians, so it's difficult to compare veggie meals with steak and/or lobster dishes, however there's a guide Michelin restaurant we go to half a dozen times each year which usually ends up around Euro50 for lunch, including wine.  Valentine's night was Euro 100 per head for an 8 course "taster meal" with champagne appero and appropriate glasses of wine along the way. It's a small concern, but an excellent venue (wonderfully restored French vigneron house) and well presented food. The meal took about 4 hours, but it was so well paced that we never felt bored or waiting for the next course.

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[Roboman]

[quote name="Rap" post="188658" timestamp="1578482159"]Dan you know me. While determining which restaurant to go to here at home we do consider the wine list. This is not the final or only determinant but it certainly is a factor. On New Years Eve the restaurant we selected had an ok wine list. But boy was I annoyed that they hadn’t taught our server about the appropriate way to serve wine. Pouring a new bottle of wine into the same glasses, even if it was the same wine and not allowing for a taste incensed me. Of course being the patient progressive liberal that I am I zinged her on the tip.[/quote]


I agree Rap, poor wine etiquette .... no tasting, clinking/grinding bottle on glass etc .... is really tedious.

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[ds968]

The restaurants which I’m referencing in the post range from a low of about $ 100 per person to $ 250 + per person ( for a three course meal ) assuming you don’t have any caviar or truffles. Most are actually in that latter category , the $ 250 + PP. And I can understand why they’d want to charge $ 150 or $ 175 or more per bottle corkage fees ; typically there’s not a single wine on their list below $ 200 , so they want to make their money one way or another ..that’s what I find rather objectionable . If I’m ready to spend $ 500 to dine there and happen to bring in a bottle of , say , $ 100 wine, I’m going to pay the restaurant $ 175 for that “ privilege “ ? Seems wrong .

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[94SilverCab]

Luckily, Philadelphia has a flourishing BYOB restaurant community. How very cavalier to think that I would take a $25 bottle of anything to any restaurant; rather, I take a 2008 Archery Summit, Ribbon Ridge, Pinot Noir to pair with a meal that will compliment my fantastic wine (that I wish to share in the best possible light with my friends).

 

If faced with a choice of $500 wine, I will simply have a cocktail before dinner and then drink water.

 

Cheers all!

 

Jay 

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[ds968]

Jay, knowing your propensity for the most exclusive of wines ( Saxum for one ) I would never dare to, nor would it even even cross my mind to associate you with the type of people who would take a $ 25 bottle outside the house , and even then it’s probably used as salad vinegar in your household .. ;-)

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[94SilverCab]

Tobin James is my "Drinking Rack"...everything else is part of the "collection" (for the most part).

 

Jay

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[Rap]

I have stopped collecting wine or deciding to hold it. Life is way too short. We do hold some of our better wines for special occasions but for the most part have decided to enjoy it.

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[94SilverCab]

Melva intercedes when the collection grows beyond 300 bottles, imposing a moratorium until there is enough room in the wine cellar to allow for a few new cases.

 

She keeps me somewhat grounded. The real question is, at what age should you stop collecting? 

 

Jay 

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[Chris Vais]

At age 72, I have stopped collecting. Almost all of the American produced wines that I am inclined to buy are generally ready to drink. They might improve a bit with age but overall, I'm not holding anything past 10 years. Collecting and holding wine is not widely practiced in this country and so most wines are produced to be drinkable at the time of purchase. 

 

Some members of my family have lived well into their late 80s and mid 90s so there is still some time left for wine to mature. That said, there is no one to leave the contents of my cellar to. My son has been clean and sober for 10 years and I have no other children. My nieces and nephews, like most millennials are indifferent about wine.

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[Roboman]

Rap that's almost poetic ... Oscar Wilde ... " Life is too short for crap wine!"


As for collecting, my wife insists on a "do not touch" area of about 50 bottles, and it's really difficult for me to keep my sticky fingers off them when with good company and we're still a little thirsty. Unfortunately she's younger than I, so I'm not going win the age argument either.

I have found a Californian wine in a French store; Beringer, Founders' Estate, CabSav 2016. €10 so no great expectations, but that was the only one I could find. The reviews give it 86/100. I bought a couple so will try one in a few weeks, see how it has traveled. CabSav is not my favorite, but it should be fine with cheese.

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[ds968]

Same here, I save nothing for special occasions , since those occasions my never happen ; anyone can get hit by a truck tomorrow and so much for everything you collected .. I have maybe four to five bottles at any given time, and when consumed, theyre replaced by another four or five bottles , but no more than that in storage .

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[Rap]

Sometimes one gets forgotten in our euro cave and we unearth an, “ oh yea I forgot about that.” We tend to buy by the case so it helps to keep available space so when the next purchase occurs there is room. I think that perhaps as we age we drink less so at some point we are going to have to calculate the buy/drink ratio. Cheers.

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[Roboman]

So, Sicily ..... excellent trip, came away stuffed full of wine and cheese!  We had a tasting more akin to the type Chris has been talking about; tour and discussion of the production centre, then sitting at a table, cold cuts of breads, cheeses, meat, and tapas, 4 types of wine: light bubbly, two whites, a red with appropriate, nicely paced discussion ... Euro25/head.  Unfortunately the wine wasn't great but we non-the-less bought a mixed case. We also bought a couple of bottles of their top wine at Euro60.  To be honest the first bottle wan't great so the second is stored at our friend's place in Sicily to be drunk the next time we are there..... hoping for improvement.

 

 

   

 

 

The "guide" informed us that about 60% of their produce goes to the US, and they are on the US tourism trail for those who visit Sicily and eventually Taomina, so you may already be familiar with this label.

 

I have more to say about Sicily, but am off out ....

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[Roboman]

And then there was this ......

 

   

 

 

I'd forgotten how cheap things can be in Sicily.  While my wife went shopping for lumps of lava-jewellery (apparently one cannot have too much) I sat in a cafe and ordered a glass of white.  It was okay, and when there was no sign that shopping had come to an end I had another  and another

When it came to paying the bill .... 3 glasses of white, one coffee, all that finger food ..... just under Euro10 .... unbelievable!!!

 

Final comment from this trip, our friend got this wine out.  VERY drinkable, could have been a little more complex, but good strong taste, and no rough edges, 14% alc ..... less than Euro4 per bottle.  Amazing value!

 

   

 

We get so accustomed to high prices that we forget about production costs and profit margins.

 

Chris what's the production cost of a bottle of wine where you've been working?  Around here it's between 1 and 2 euros. I'm not concerned about what it costs at an outlet or restaurant, as that includes all sorts of variables, but I'm interested to know the cost of getting 750ml of wine into a bottle, labeled, corked, and capped.

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[Chris Vais]

If you assume a cost, for Livermore AVA fruit of $1800 per ton for white wine grapes, and $2300 per ton for red grapes, the production cost per bottle is estimated to be $15.50 and $19.00 respectively. The cost per bottle for a Napa Cab, where the grapes cost $20,000 per ton, comes to about $45.00. You still need to factor in the cost of owning/renting tasting room space, labor costs for a tasting room, advertising and shipping to your bottle cost.

 

At Longevity, our costs to produce a bottle ran between $15 and $19.00 to produce and our whole sale price ran from between $25 and $45 per bottle.

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[Roboman]

Wow, I'll have to ask my guys again how they arrive at such a low cost. It is possible that it stems from merely what they pay the vigneron / litre delivered and they are not factoring plant depreciation etc etc.

 

But then there's the prices of the wine available in Sicily??

 

I'll ask the president of the cooperative and see if I can get a straight answer.

 

I'll get back to you later.  Cheers, Robert

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[Chris Vais]

You can reduce the cost of a bottle of wine in the following ways. Ferment in large quantities. Low cost producers ferment in 10,000 gallon fermentors. Buy cheaper fruit. Cabernet will crop at 7 tons an acre if allowed, fruit cropped at this level sells for less month than fruit which has been cropped at 2 to 3 tons an acre, which is the optimum for a premium quality wine. Machine harvest the fruit rather than hand harvest. Machine prune the vines. Don't use wood barrels. If you want to add some oak, use oak staves, chips, cubes or balls and drop them into your fermentors. Use artificial corks and cheap glass for bottling. Age wine in bulk tanks until it is time to bottle. Release the wine with minimal aging, no more than 12 to 18 months. Cheap labor.

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