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968 turbo conversion
#41

not sure which one you are going to use, but watch out on the friction disks - the solid disks won't hold the power for long, and the turbo disks are known to blow apart - pete can fill you in on the details of that though
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#42

Man, this all sounds like an awful lot of work. It sounds as if the end result, assuming everyting turns out well and I have no reason to believe that it wont', but there isn't much you're leaving untouched.



How will you finished product compare in results and cost with, say, a PowerHaus turbo conversion?
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#43

Thanks Flash. I did read about disc failures with increased clamping forsces and rpms. Probably go with heavy 4 spring mixed composition disc. I have used centerforce components before and never had a failure. Not sure about how much increased pedal pressure.....





Received the ceramic coated cross pipe and downpipe and clutch fork today. ALL in excellent condition!! Cross pipe is 2.5 inches and down pipe is 3 inches id. This means at least a 3 inch total exhaust or 3-4 inch. Plenty of turbo exhaust kits out there for this application (944 that is, but fit just as well)



Cross pipe fits under rear of oil pan, not under bell housing as stated on some other sites.



FOund a perfect intercooler today. 600cfm with only .5 psi pressure drop at 12 psi. will drop about 150F across path. 2.5 inlets and outlets (perfect match) PRICE: 109 + 40$ shipping BRAND NEW!!! it has the necessary rear facing ports(which have beaded flanges,... and it is polished!!! nice touch). overall, it is trapezoidal shaped and will drop nicely in front of the radiator (which will also be replaced with oversized unit)





or I could use a stock intercooler which is slightly smaller, slightly less effective, and sells for about the same price used...



don't forget the necessary ring gear for 944/951 clutch conversion. new is about 300$ from pelican. good used is 25$!





Costs:

1)so far buying all these stock components has cost about 1500$, I already have the turbo saving me at least 1000$.

2) intercooler , intake welding, seals, gaskets, and exhaust system and pistons(with the 1800$ mahle 104.5 over bored turbo pistons), rods, bore hone head work, misc bolts etc., dyno and road tuning, and Haltech = 6000-7000$ MAX more.



Labor: Freeeeee



Total job done right(I am very picky when it comes to tolerances): less than 10,000$



powerhaus: ~20,000$ or less for the system. They quoted me 35,000$ if I dropped the car off and they did everything. BUT, they offer a 5-6000 mile warranty......



I have found that for specialty installs and conversion, you can just take the cost of parts and triple it for the to get a total install/labor price. A friend of mine races his porsche 962, rebuilt from bottom up. blew the engine, spent 20,000$ for a rebuild from Porsche, hit the track and it too blew in less than 10 hours!!! NO WARRANTY. Moral is ...well i don't really know.... blow what you have and don't go over budget. If you can't do the work yourself, find a friend who can or you are gonna pay....



I am taking the simplest, easiest, least expensive way to do this conversion, but I want to do it right....



Anyone have any suggestions, please jump right in!!
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#44

park another 3 grand for tuning



find a trailer to tow it back and forth to the dyno
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#45

hehe..funny..but i know a guy who has a dyno and who is better than me at tuning haltechs! so cost is low for me...others maybe not so lucky... usually, tuning for someone who really know Haltech is about 100-120$ and hour. Quickest I have had a car tuned is 1.5 hours...avg at least 3. Haltech system is pretty stable across all usable environmental temp and pressure ranges, and is very good at keeping the misture right...



there was a question on twin turbo setup. Not something I will do, but here is a little tid bit on turbo 'lag' for those who are interested. Borrowed from:



http://www.opelownersforum.co.za/forum/vie...5ff40ed53638fc4



Lag



A lag is sometimes felt by the driver of a turbocharged vehicle as a delay between pushing on the accelerator pedal and feeling the turbo kick-in. This is symptomatic of the time taken for the exhaust system driving the turbine to come to high pressure and for the turbine rotor to overcome its rotational inertia and reach the speed necessary to supply boost pressure. The directly-driven compressor in a supercharger does not suffer this problem. (Centrifugal superchargers do not build boost at low RPMs like a positive displacement supercharger will). Conversely on light loads or at low RPM a turbocharger supplies less boost and the engine is less efficient than a supercharged engine.



Lag can be reduced by lowering the rotational inertia of the turbine, for example by using lighter parts to allow the spool-up to happen more quickly. Ceramic turbines are a big help in this direction. Unfortunately, their relative fragility limits the maximum boost they can supply. Another way to reduce lag is to change the aspect ratio of the turbine by reducing the diameter and increasing the gas-flow path-length. Increasing the upper-deck air pressure and improving the wastegate response helps but there are cost increases and reliability disadvantages that car manufacturers are not happy about. Lag is also reduced by using a foil bearing rather than a conventional oil bearing. This reduces friction and contributes to faster acceleration of the turbo's rotating assembly. Variable-nozzle turbochargers (discussed above) also reduce lag.



Another common method of equalizing turbo lag is to have the turbine wheel "clipped", or to reduce the surface area of the turbine wheel's rotating blades. By clipping a minute portion off the tip of each blade of the turbine wheel, less restriction is imposed upon the escaping exhaust gases. This imparts less impedance onto the flow of exhaust gases at low RPM, allowing the vehicle to retain more of its low-end torque, but also pushes the effective boost RPM to a slightly higher level. The amount a turbine wheel is and can be clipped is highly application-specific. Turbine clipping is measured and specified in degrees.



Other setups, most notably in V-type engines, utilize two identically-sized but smaller turbos, each fed by a separate set of exhaust streams from the engine. The two smaller turbos produce the same (or more) aggregate amount of boost as a larger single turbo, but since they are smaller they reach their optimal RPM, and thus optimal boost delivery, faster. Such an arrangement of turbos is typically referred to as a parallel twin-turbo system.



Some car makers combat lag by using two small turbos (such as Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Maserati, Mazda, and Audi). A typical arrangement for this is to have one turbo active across the entire rev range of the engine and one coming on-line at higher RPM. Early designs would have one turbocharger active up to a certain RPM, after which both turbochargers are active. Below this RPM, both exhaust and air inlet of the secondary turbo are closed. Being individually smaller they do not suffer from excessive lag and having the second turbo operating at a higher RPM range allows it to get to full rotational speed before it is required. Such combinations are referred to as a sequential twin-turbo. Sequential twin-turbos are usually much more complicated than a single or parallel twin-turbo systems because they require what amounts to three sets of pipes-intake and wastegate pipes for the two turbochargers as well as valves to control the direction of the exhaust gases. An example of this is the current BMW E60 5-Series 535d. Another well-known example is the 1993-2002 Mazda RX-7. Many new diesel engines use this technology to not only eliminate lag but also to reduce fuel consumption and produce cleaner emissions.



Lag is not to be confused with the boost threshold; however, many publications still make this basic mistake. The boost threshold of a turbo system describes the minimum engine RPM at which there is sufficient exhaust flow to the turbo to allow it to generate significant amounts of boost[citation needed]. Newer turbocharger and engine developments have caused boost thresholds to steadily decline to where day-to-day use feels perfectly natural. Putting your foot down at 1200 engine RPM and having no boost until 2000 engine RPM is an example of boost threshold and not lag. If lag was experienced in this situation, the RPM would either not start to rise for a short period of time after the throttle was increased, or increase slowly for a few seconds and then suddenly build up at a greater rate as the turbo become effective. However, the term lag is used for boost threshold by many manufacturers themselves so as not to confuse common man with many words.



Electrical boosting ("E-boosting") is a new technology under development; it uses a high speed electrical motor to drive the turbocharger to speed before exhaust gases are available, e.g. from a stop-light. The electric motor is about an inch long. [4]



Race cars often utilize an Anti-Lag System to completely eliminate lag at the cost of reduced turbocharger life.



On modern diesel engines, this problem is virtually eliminated by utilizing a variable geometry turbocharger.





Boost Threshold

Turbochargers start producing boost only above a certain rpm (depending on the size of the turbo) because they are powered by the movement exhaust gases; without an appropriate exhaust gas velocity, they logically cannot force air into the engine. The point at which the airflow in the exhaust is strong enough to force air into the engine is known as the boost threshold rpm. Engineers have, in some cases, been able to reduce the boost threshold rpm to idle speed to allow for instant response. [citation needed].



Both Lag and Threshold characteristics can be acquired through the use of a compressor map using a compressor map and a mathematical equation.







best net definition I have found besides tech books.....
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#46

just to give you a bit of perspective on turbocharging these cars, most people have spent more like 15-20 hours tuning and playing with this component or that, before they could actually drive the car - not sure what the story is there, because i too have done it in a lot less time on other cars, but it certainly seems to be a lot more complicated on these for some reason - in fact, i don't even know of anybody yet whose car is "done" - every one of them seems to say there is "some fine tuning left"



all i am saying is "be prepared"
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#47

not to push the Haltech system, but it is super easy to use with 3D real time graphs, 2D adjustable real time bar graphs, multi bar/multi rate adjustment, built in prelim maps, real time data/instrument displays, wideband feedback loop, and other such user friendly goodies....windows friendly point and click, ...but you pay more for this.



Some other systems were , and still are, far behind this. you had to actually enter numbers on a spread sheet...that can take a while.
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#48

Wastegate:



I want to find a gate that is efficient, but not wasteful. And certainly, it has to decrease pressure when needed. No creeping, no sticking.



Looking on the net, there are many many inexpensive gates. Look closely and you will see poorly machined surfaces, no description of internals, inlet and outlet ports of differing sizes, no flanges, etc...



You could easily spend 800$ for an HKS or some other exotic, but do you have too??



I say don't buy the crap, but don;t spend a fortune. There is a company called TiAL. they make a very nicely made unit of either the 38 or 41 mm size I am looking for. AND, they sell all necessary flanges and various springs for gating.



Basically, a wastegate allows some of the pre-turbo exhaust gas to bypass the the turbo. This is so that boost is not unlimited and your turbo does not spool into infinity. Wastgates come with a preset spring of say 1 ATM (atmosphere) You could buy a gate with a higher or lower spring rate. But those cheaper wastegate companies don;t off other springs for you to change out. So you have to get a whole other unit or hook up above and below diaphragm vacc lines and set up a boost control (ebc or manual)



I suggest getting the TiAL model because you can change out springs to any of at least 15 different rates, or combos of springs.



Why change springs instead of starting out with a high spring rate and use the boost control to limit it??? It is nice to know that you have something of a safety margin. When I break this engine in, I won't go over 6PSI (which is really 14.7+6 as the manifold/engine sees it). And I will slowly boost up from there with an EBC. Once I am comfortable and things are good, I will change out the spring to say 8 or 10PSI.
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#49

well, i hope you have success - i would love to see somebody finally nail this - so far, nobody else i know of has - i'm not going there, because life is just too short, and i've wasted enough time modding this car and not driving it already
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#50

Thanks Flash! So do I. Like I said before, there are many small challenges in this big battle. But it can be fun. I found much info on the net from others who have done the same or similar conversion. Of course, the conversion houses won;t give away their secrets on the net or the phone, but since I am looking ot make a daily driver seeing on occaisional track time, this build has more leeway.



On the topic of cam timing: This is generally a confusing topic for most average home garage engine builders. Most can master the other aspects of an engine build (except for maybe ring material choice , ring end gaps, piston wall clearances). As with most turbo engines, less intake exhaust valve overlap the better. Since I am using the vario cam head and not the 16 valve S2 head, this becomes more of a concern. I have found in the past that adjustable cam gears with at least +5/-5 degrees of adjustment work best for tuning.



this problem is solved with :



http://www.deutschnine.com/mm5/merchant.mv...tuning-handling



I read that the stock gear is adjustable for a few degrees. Overall, advancing the intake AND exhaust timing about 3-4 degrees allows the earlier entry of compressed air/fuel into the chamber and earlier exit of the spent increased volume. The variocam when in effect, can add up to 15 degrees intake advance. This might be beneficial during full boost and will be something to try once hooked up to Haltech. I plan to start with the basic timing and then test the variocam action. Also, 16 valves breath well, so this is beneficial to the turbo action. I will probably do a simple valve grind keeping the seat/face contact as minimal as needed.



in regards to the valves, the exhaust valve is the important one. I have not found sodium filled valves for this application. It is possible to find american valves made to take the heat and have new guides and seats placed for a reasonable cost. heat transfer very important here (like the top piston ring). and that leads to springs. I don;t plan on high rpms. but you have to consider the extra inflow of air/fuel has increased mass and that will be slamming onto the back side of the intake valves. So a good intake valve spring may be required. I will talk to my firend who used to work for the head design unit at Ford racing and see what he says. again, cost is a driving force. if vlaves, springs, retainers, guides, and seats can be obtained at a reasonable cost and are easily available, this route will be investigated.





and there is also the intake design, which i choose to use the 944 turbo intake mated to the 968 for simplicity. it will need some smoothing of the internal welds once completed. This is not the ideal intake for a turbo, but it will be effective enough for my application.



here is a basic timing chart which I borrowed from 968UK website(all credit to Chris Jennings).
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#51

they don't give away the secrets because they don't have them - i can't think of a single car that had this done that went smoothly- sure, everybody loves the power, but they all seem to say that it either runs hot, or has some tuning left to be done



i'd sure like to know why it seems so tough - maybe it's just the levels they are trying to achieve - maybe that's why porsche chose 305bhp for the turbo, and only made 4 of the 350bhp setups - they may just have figured out, given the enormous resources they had, that it just couldn't be done any higher and keep it streetable and reliable
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#52

Yep Flash, agree with you on that one. thats why I am aiming low for street use. 100-150hp over stock is a good goal. Of course i say this will satisfy me, but who knows.



I think this is max for stock intercooler/radiator. with upgraded intercooler and radiator, using forged pistons, i think more could be had fairly reliably.



Since the early 1990's, anyone from california and the rest of the world, could tell you that the 'import' scene has really exploded. so many manufacturers of CARB allowed turbo setups and good components have come out of the last 15 years. Also much junk, but that is another story.



I would bet that there are many more options for add on components for the 968 engine(components that work but not designed specifically for one engin or another) today than there were in 1992. I can choose from 10 different styles of blow off valves, sequential blowoff valves , multiple blow off valves, fully adjustable blow off valves, etc..



I could make one phone call and have a choice of at least ten different turbine and as many compressor wheels, and three housings...etc..



You can buy any type or size intercooler you want for a reasonable price. Shoot, i can call up JE and order a set of off the shelf forged pistons for this engine with rings for 1000$. try that 15 yrs ago.



PLUS: there has probably been more research and development on four bangers in the last 15 years than all of the 20th century. In 1991, i could not find a turbo conversion kit for an Eclipse. 10 yrs later and you could buy a new cast turbo manifold off the shelf and had a choice of at least two complete kits. in 1991, HKS in Japan was the only major company of add on turbo accesories. MAny more today.....



Obviously, turbo research has been going on for 100 years. pick up any sport compact mag and see what people are doing today. Might as well slap a turbo on now before we run out of gas!!



Also, I am not saying that porsche tried and failed or that they couldn't do it so no one else can. but they may have realized that in the economy of the time, and with the components they had available, in a car that was not selling, why bother. If I was a big company, $'s would be my #1 concern.



At least they made enough parts close enough in common for me to use today!! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



On a bad note, my turbo arrived today and the turbine housing has an internal waste port and can not be used with the 944 down pipe. Must ....find.....another........
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#53

the increase in aftermarket CARB stuff is primarily because of the improvement in controls - the variable timing systems, variable intakes, and better electronics have opened the door for a lot of this - unfortunately, we don't have any of that - if you tried to turbocharge a 1968 small block chevy, you would still have the same problems today that you had then, and for the same reasons



i'm also not saying it can't be done, but it sure seems like everybody is having a really hard time doing it - i have not looked all that hard into the reasons why - as i said, i have enough on my plate already - the only conclusion i can draw is that they are all shooting too high - it seems they are all trying to get over 350hp, and that they are all running into problems while trying to maintain daily driver reliability and flexibility



100-150 over stock is a big jump, and i think 75-90 is more realistic, but good luck
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#54

Got a call from 'xxxx' house of performance. gee, sent them an email at least 3 weeks ago. So this guy calls up to explain why 35G$ is their price and that he is not there to 'educate' me in regards to the turbo conversion and that what i am doing is basically all wrong.



What an A-ho. This guy should have tried responding in a timely manner, tried being polite to a possible cutomer, and showed some respect for other peoples knowledge. Unfortunately, I had to hang up on that BS.



And this is not uncommon. In my mass emails to many performance shops, another big porsche shop in Cali replied in a rude fashion on the phone that I already written to him. Well, maybe I never got the first reply. Another A-ho.



And of course, ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS FROM ME!



On the other hand, Lindsey racing has ALWAYS ALWAYS been polite and willing to answer my questions. So if any vendors are reading this, just because a guy is trying something a little different, you should be polite as possible and point him in the appropriate direction because he might dump untold thousands in you pocket!!! This goes for everything in life. You better treat others like you want to be treated.



All right enogh of this.



As far as power, you can easily add 100 hp to this engine and it will bear the forces. It has to be done correctly, and it can't be over-revved, of course. I will prove it...eventually.
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#55

sorry you got that response, but i can't say it's unexpected



a number of years ago i had a similar response at a car show from a turbo shop that last i heard was closing up shop and selling his cars - i was a prime customer, with cash in my pocket for exactly this kind of thing, and all i wanted to know was if it was CARB legal - he told me to "get away from his car" - not exactly the response i was looking for



i guess the turbocharging of 968s is such a good business they all don't need new customers



as for the 100 bump, i'm not worried about the strength or durability either - i'm pretty sure that most everything in the engine can handle the loads - the suspension and brakes are a different story, but that's another discussion entirely - it's more the daily driver streetability that seems to be eluding everyone



again though, best of luck
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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#56

oh yeah...I have not even got around to anything more than new rotors, castor blocks and pads.....



And then there is the body work.....



Just picked up the intercooler. it will fit perfectly in front of the rad, and only very minor front end metal work needs to be done. 2.5 inch inlet/ outlet will match intake and throttle body. Some of the internal angles of the cooler are kinda sharp, but for 100$ brand new, can't beat it.



SIZE: 3.5 in thich X 21 overall length X 10 in tall. I think the thinner width of 3.5 inches will be more effective than the stock type 944 intercooler, and the overall volume of this one is slightly more. Will easily reduces temps at my boost level.



Another point to this conversion is to make something that others could do if they wanted, not some untouchable exotic (parts or prices)



just a thought: has anyone ever mounted a fan on an intercooler. I could slip a thin blade fan between the intercooler and the rad to help make up some flow. maybe run it off the haltech control at a slightly lower temp than fan relays.....just a thought.... nahh, not necessary
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#57

Back to the flywheel:

some people use the lightened aluminum flywheel and some use lightened steel flywheels, but of the 968 size. as I stated before, i chose the stock steel 944 S2 flywheel which i will have resurfaced and very well balanced at a nearby shop. Hopefully, this weighs in at the stated ~16lbs (we shall see)!! pic below:



Now for the bad news, The pistons that I want, the MAhle's, are only made for 8 valve(except for maybe the HMR ones which maybe the only version made for 16 v). So that leaves me with JE pisotns and sizing the right rings. HOWEVER, and this is a big HOWEVER!, our bores are alusil, not nikisil. So you need to either coat the pistons and moly rings...or, have the cylinders nikisiled (sp?). Nikisilling (sp?) cost about 800$ from what I understand...and is done in only one place...



Costs:

JE pistons coated and rings 1500$

overbore and hone 600$

Nikisil: 800$



still within the under 10,000$ budget. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/ohmy.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



Intercooler Plumbing: running the intercooler plumbing will be very easy with the new intercooler. A few polished aluminum 2.5 inch angle bends, a few silicone couplers and a clamps, 2.5 inch pipe Blow off adapter, and boost side is done for under 300$. pic below is for toyota supra..more than I need , but only 74$...it's just aluminum tubing 2mm wall thickness..will more than handle my boost pressure. And I will probably cover it with DEI wrap to keep it cool anyway....



Intake: probably go with 4 inch aluminum intake piping (if I can fit it) with a reducer just before the compressor cover.







PS: Flash: Keep up the suggestions good or bad, they make me question each choice I make, which can only help in the long run!!
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#58

just found this pic of the Jager car. for intercooler placement, 968's have more room due to repositioning of the hood latch more forward and removal of the pop up mechanism
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#59

Try Jason Lee at HMR. 727-584-0277. He can provide 16 valve pistons (made by Mahle to his spec) and rings for the 968. 8.5:1 CR.
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#60

Thanks. Spoke with Jason Lee last week. He was very helpful and a vendor who made me think about what I was doing. Just sent him another email.
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