[Cloud9...68]

This job is tougher than I had expected. I have a number of questions, related to the pictures below. I hope somebody who's done this before (I know Monstrousfourbanger has done a few... I am not worthy... I am not worthy....) can answer some of my questions:



Picture #1: The instructions say to remove the piston shown in the top picture, and that a special tool may be needed. But the piston is smooth inside, with nothing to grab onto, so how on earth can it be removed? It's apparently made of aluminum, so it's not magnetic, so that's not an option. Are there any seals behind this piston that make it worth removing, or should I leave it alone?



Picture #2: The black o-ring shown in this picture is just laying in place; it's not in any kind of groove, so it's VERY loose. It falls out when I turn the tower casting over. Is this normal? It's exactly the same size as the o-ring that was in there before, so I'm sure I have the correct o-ring. Is this o-ring supposed to fit around the shaft?



Picture #3: Similarly, the four purple o-rings that fit in the grooves of the control valve and pinion assembly fit VERY loosely in their grooves. I'm hard pressed to see how they'll stay in place when I put the assembly back into the tower casting. But again, they're the same diameter as the o-rings I removed from the same grooves. Maybe if I soak everything in ATF before I put the assembly back into the tower casting it will all go back together correctly without any of the o-rings slipping out of their grooves...



Picture #4: This is the biggie. How the heck do you get the seal shown in this picture out? I've spent about an hour tugging at it with every pick and screwdriver I own, and I've managed to completely mangle it, and I've pulled the circular spring out of it, but I'm no closer to loosening it than when I started. The problem is that any tool that I have that's small enough to fit in the hole to get at the seal is too small to exert any kind of grip on. There's a picture of something described as a seal puller on page 12 of the instructions, but I can't see it well enough to tell what it is. Maybe my local auto parts store will be able to offer some suggestions...



Picture #5: Finally, there are a shocking number of seals and o-rings left over in the kit (which I bought from Paragon) that I can't figure out where they could possibly go. The entire rack assembly just doesn't seem to have THAT many seals and o-rings. Could the reseal kit I bought be a generic one for ZF steering racks, and not necessarily specific to the 968's, and thus has every possible o-ring and seal to cover every ZF rack that's available?



Again, any help would be greatly appreciated. If there's a positive side, the shaft seems to be in excellent condition, with no sign of any pitting or scoring.

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[Monstrous4Banger]

You got to get that collar piece out, IIRC there is more under there. Its been a while, but Im sure we can jog the memory.



Picture 1: IIRC yes, there are seals behind the piston. You need to get the collar out, to get to everything under there. I used a dental pick, like I said in PM. The picture shows the plate off, and the springs removed, Im trying to remember how the piston came out. I know I didnt use a special tool any time Ive done it. Its been 3 years. I seem to remember it looking more straightforward once the guide ring collar looking thing is out.



Picture 2: I seem to remember it fitting like that too.



Picture 3: It does seem a little loose. The more I think about it tho, it seems mine did too. Its been 3 years since Ive done one. You make me want to tear into one of my extras now. LOL Me or none of my friends here locally have had to reseal one since we did them 3 years ago. I would think the fluid would make them shrink, and seat too. Again, dont recall it being a significant issue when Ive done them.



Picture 4: Thats the piece Im talking about. Its a real bugger. Guide ring I guess its called, after looking at the howto. Get a decently strong dental pick, that isnt going to bend real easy, and get some needle nose, or vise grips on it. The more I think about it, I seem to remember another similarly difficult one you need to get out, after that one.



Picture 5: Nope, you should be using all those. Seems to be about right.

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[Cloud9...68]

Thanks.



Pic 1: Not sure what you mean by a collar. The piston is the only thing inside the opening, and it's stuck REALLY tight, plus I don't see anything to grab onto to pull it out.



Pic 2: Whew!



Pic 4: Another seal behind this one???!!!!!! All I can say is, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Pic 5: Wow, I don't see how I can find this many additional seals anywhere in or on this thing, unless a whole bunch of them are hiding behind that little piston...



Sure wish I could crawl into a time machine and not start this job. My rack probably wasn't leaking; just seemed like a good idea to go ahead an re-seal it while I had it out. Little did I know....

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[Monstrous4Banger]

I got a buddy of mine to register here, hes a 931 guy, but a good mechanic none the less. When we did them, when I got sick of something, he would try to pick them out, and vice versa. The name he submitted is fa931. Ill rip into onw of these extras tomorrow, and refreshen my memory. But yeah, pretty sure there were more seals once you get in there. I dont remember having extras at all. I got my kit from rennbay though. We'll figure it out, but digging those seals out is tedious. I guess after seeing how they come out a couple few times, makes it seem easier than it is I guess. Didnt mean to give you an underestimation. I did want to pull my hair out a couple times, but doesnt just about every repair on these cars make you want to do that? LOL Its not the easiest repair on our cars, but not the hardest either. Somewhere in the middle I suppose. Engine rebuild, trans rebuild, or torque tube rebuild come to mind as worse.



Dont worry, youll get it figured out, even if I have to do it with you, as I rip mine apart step by step over the phone. We shouldve kept notes when we were doin this. What I forget my buddy will remember. Its been a while, I need to look inside one again.

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[Monstrous4Banger]

Started ripping and extra one apart. Ive got it mostly assembled. I need a vise to get it off any further. I dont have one in my garage right now. Im looking at the date on this rack, its been closer to four years actually. I see your main shaft is out. Does the piston move for you? Did you drive the pinion bearing and cap out through the bottom of the tower? Doesnt look like it in the pic. See the arnnworx write up.



Check this out: http://www.rennbay.c...ealkitfull.html

They dont remove it at all in this tutorial.

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[bombfactory]

Cloud - which tutorial are you working from? I've seen the one on Rennbay.



-Austin

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[Cloud9...68]

Monstrous,



Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm probably getting more frustrated by this that I should, because I'm in a race against the weather to get my engine put back - I want to re-install it before it gets unbearably hot and humid here in Austin (I know you can relate to that in Phoenix; well, not the humidity part...), and I hadn't counted on spending what looks like is going to be a solid week struggling with the steering rack re-seal.



Thanks a ton for that second write-up! Between that and the other write-up, I should have all the info I need to put this thing back together correctly. I just quickly skimmed the second write-up, and I see a few steps I don't recognize, which might explain at least some of the "extra" seals. Still don't see any info on how to remove that stinkin' piston, though.



I bought a new pick last night which is angled a little differently than any of the seven picks I currently own. I'm hoping this little difference will help get those stubborn seals out.



I was wondering about something - do you think it would be smart to try slightly heating the area where these seals are located with a heat gun (not a torch!)? I'm thinking this may make the seals a little more pliable (they're hard are flint right now - OK, I'm exaggerating a little). But I'm concerned about the fact that I can't tell what the material surrounding the seal is - it kind of looks like it might be plastic, in which case heat might be a very bad idea.

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[tamathumper]

In the past, I've used a seal puller, which I'm assuming you already thought of and won't work for some reason? Two examples are:

http://www.harborfreight.com/seal-puller-91352.html



http://www.harborfreight.com/seal-puller-35556.html



Or, if it's a chamber behind the seal that you can somehow close off, once I had to fill the void behind the seal with fluid and tap a tight-fitting brass rod down into the fluid and that popped the seal out. If your seal is munged up, you may not be able to use that method.

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[Cloud9...68]

Austin,



I've been using the Arnworx write up, the link to which is in the thread "Things to do with the engine out of my car" under OEM/Engine, post #17 from Monstrous4banger. The pictures in the Rennbay write-up are much better. It appears that both write-ups leave a few steps out, but between the two, I think all the required information is present. I wish the Arnworx (sp?) write-up gave a better description of the tool they used to pull the seal in the tower casting that's causing me so much trouble. They show a picture of it, but it's too blurry to make out what kind of tool it is. They refer to it as a seal puller, and even say it may not be necessary(?), but they don't really describe what type of tool it is.

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[Cloud9...68]

Tatathumper,



It appears we've got overlapping posts. Thanks for the info on the different types of seal pullers. I have the one in your second link, and it's way too big to fit inside the hole. The first one looks like it may be promising, however. I especially like the handle, as it could take A LOT of force to pull this rock-hard seal out. It doesn't look like the one in the Arnworx write-up, but it looks like it may be worth a try. If the new pick I bought doesn't do the trick, I may try to track down one of these.

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[Cloud9...68]

Not that any sane person would attempt this job after my graphic descriptions of the misery I'm going through with it, but I just learned something after carefully reading through the Rennbay description. It pertains to question #3 in my first post. According to Rennbay, there is supposed to be an o-ring that fits in the groove under each of the purple band seals (I mistakenly called them o-rings in my post) that go around the gear assembly which I describe as fitting alarming loosely. Rennbay says these o-rings need to go in "whether they are in the original unit or not." This seems strange, but these particular o-rings aren't in my gear assembly. I was wondering what all those large o-rings in the re-seal kit were for; now I know. So, one puzzle solved. Still struggling with the removal of the seal at the bottom of the gear drive housing (Question #4). I'm looking for a machine shop to pull it out for me. it's either that, or dynamite...

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[Monstrous4Banger]

Ahh yes, that explains why yours were loose. Its hard to judge from the pic. Dont bother punching the bearing cap out the bottom. Its just for thorough cleaning. The piston doesnt come out(or I should say doesnt need to come out). Thats why I couldnt remember how to get it out. After talking to my friend who I did them with, it makes sense now. You have to take the spring plate off to take the tension off the internals. Once its apart though, no need to go furhter, just clean it out. If you want to thoroughly clean it, gently drive the cap out of the bottom. When you put it back in be sure not to drive it in too far.



Have you disassembled the rack cylinder, and replaced all those seals as well?

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[banditsc]

So is $200 with a lifetime warranty at Autozone looking attractive at this point?

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[Cloud9...68]

Monstrous,



Thanks; I was think along the lines of leaving the piston is as well. And no, I haven't yet taken apart the rack cylinder and tackles those seals; I have my hands full enough with the one in the control tower (aka tower casting). Once I get it out, I'll start on the rack cylinder.



Banditc,



Absolutely not! Here's the problem - since I have my steering rack (almost) completely disassembled, I can see that the shaft is is absolutely perfect condition. I've heard that rebuilt racks have a spotty reputation - some seem to work fine, others leak right out of the box. So, the last thing I want to to is trade a known good unit for one that may or may not be any good. Plus, I've already spent $70 on the rebuild kit, which I don't want to throw away. Mine may not even have been leaking to begin with - the shop said it might be in the early stages of leaking, but the pump and high pressure line are leaking so badly that what they saw on the rack might be coming from these sources. I'm only doing this because I had it off the car anyway, so I figured it would be a good idea to go ahead and replace a bunch of 19-year-old rubber seals. If I know how hard it would be, would I have done this? No way! But now that I'm knee deep into it, I have no choice but to keep slogging away. The next step is to go to Harbor Freight to see if their seal puller is promising. If not, I'll take it to a machine shop for (hopefully only) this one step that's kicking my butt.

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[flash]

you have to wonder what your time and frustration are worth - for me, the amount of stuff you are dealing with would already have cost me more than $200 in wine



at this point, if you don't want to just get the other unit, and hang onto yours, i think i would send it to a rebuilder - there is a guy out there who does this for you - i think he even posted here at one point - i'll see if i can find his info it you'd like

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[banditsc]

I've had look with the rebuilds from AutoZone. I actually talked with one of the rebuilders that does the work. The company is Atsco which is out of Arizona. They do all sorts of QA checks and what not for wear and play. Even some upgrades to the seals and stuff, one nice one I like which I haven't see before is the replacment for the plastic plug Porsche uses for the centering point, all the ones I ran across were broken up plastic plugs, they replace them with nice metal ones with an o-ring.

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[Monstrous4Banger]

200 bucks from autozone would be worth it. Although at this point, Ive already done them myself successfully. I guess after going through one a couple times, it gets easier. The seals are a PITA for sure, but I guess you develop a knack for pickin em out. Sometimes they come out with less fuss, sometimes not.

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[flash]

yeah - if i got this deep in, and only had $70 into it, i'd buy one of the autozone units, verify its operation, and then send mine out for rebuild, and then sell it



the $70 is a cheap lesson that sometimes is less expensive to pay somebody else - even at minimum wage that project has gotten very expensive



i've gone through this a number of times - this week alone i've had a few expensive investments in my education - the collector is probably going to be a $1500 waste of time - between getting it modified, thermal coated, ceramic coated, the new O2 sensor, and other parts to try to make it work, and having to do it all over again to return it to stock, , it is clear that i wasted a lot of money as well as a lot of time



but i learned something, so it's not that bad

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[Cloud9...68]

Thanks to everybody for all the constructive comments, assistance, and advice. Here's where I stand on this thing:



Something is clearly wrong here. There's more going on than simply a stubborn seal that's difficult to remove. This thing simply will...not...come....out. Last night, I bought the heavy-duty seal removal tool from Harbor Freight, and was able to get a really good hold on the underside of the seal, pulled with everything I have (I'm no contender for the World's Strongest Man competition, but as a 51-year-old guy who can still do 20 pull-ups, I'm far from a weakling), and I can't get it to move a nanometer. So then I managed to wedge my straight pick between the seal and the groove that it sits in, pound it through the seal, and break the metal ring that's embedded in the seal. Even that didn't have any effect. So I repeated the process at about 10 points around the seal, and got the same result. It's as if Wolfgang applied some Krazy Glue to the seal before placing it in its groove.



So, here's my plan: I'm going to see if I can replace the remaining seals in the rack (there are only a couple left to to). If there are others as bad as the one in the tower casting, I'll have to punt and send it out to be re-sealed by a professional (I pity the poor soul who gets to work on this beast). I'm not in a hurry, since there's still a ton of other work to do before the car is driveable, so I won't go out and buy a rebuilt rack right away, unless the re-sealer says mine is truly impossible to re-seal.



If I can replace the rest of the seals with only moderate effort, I'll send just the tower casting to someone who has experience with this sort of thing, and have them figure out if there's a way to get this thing out. If they can, I'll put my rack back together (after re-reading the two how-to's, I'm pretty sure I can get it back together OK), and be on my way. If even a professional finds that this seal is impossible to remove, I'll have to buy a rebuilt rack, and throw mine in the trash, which would be tragic, because, as I said, the main working components, particulalry the shaft, look to be in perfect condition. Ideally, I'd like to just buy a replacement tower casting, but I have a feeling I won't be able to buy this part separately.



This is just one of those unfortunate things that happen from time to time when working on an old car (or boat, airplane, or any other mechanical device you can think of). I have no direct evidence that my rack was ever leaking. The only reason I've tried to re-seal it is that it was off the car, and replacing the 19-year-old rubber seals struck me as a good idea, especially since re-seal kits are still readily available. In researching it, some poeple said it was a challenging and difficult job, but others said it wasn't too bad, so I figured it was worth a shot. Heck, if I can remove an engine, I can do anything, right?<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> If my rack was clearly leaking, and I had a crystal ball that told me how hard it would be to re-seal it, then of course I would have bought a rebuilt rack instead of putting myself through this agony, but I had now way of knowing at the time that I have what appears to be a rack on the outer fringes of the distribution in terms of difficulty to replace its seals (at least the one in the bottom of the tower casting).



Please, somebody (preferably a whole gang of somebodies) tell me re-sealing the power steering pump, which truly is leaking badly, isn't within a light year of two as difficult to reseal as this rack...

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[Ryan]

Cloud, I have heard of driving a screw into the seal surround and using a small slide-hammer to pull the seal out.



Wish I could help you on the pump rebuild. I ordered a kit from Sunset (had to come from Germany) and I have not done the job yet as I tightened the fittings and may have found my leak.

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