[SpeedForceRacing]

[quote name='flash' date='Jan 23 2009, 12:22 AM' post='66031']

no, it wasn't the project i have been contemplating - no, it isn't something that will ever be available as a kit

jeff bought tony's car - it had the beginnings of a roots system on it - never ran right - jeff dumped a TON of dough into it trying to get it to run right

then he brought it over to my place - i poked around and immediately found a few very obvious things that were just plain dumb - in his desperate outreach to get the car sorted out, he had somebody (who shall remain nameless) tell him he needed and then sell him an intercooler, and they then proceeded to stick it in the worst place they could, right in front of the radiator, but 6 inches away - this caused a pressure issue between the two, and worse only allowed hot post intercooler air to get to the radiator - bottom line, the car thought it was 110 outside when it was only 60







No need to keep us nameless, Flash. Four threads down from this I replied about all the things going on with Jeffs car when he decided to chime in.....so anyone can dig it up in 30 seconds. First off the intercooler is not 6" away from the radiator. The core is 3.5" thick and you can clearly see from your picture that what you are saying is not correct. Second, we didnt install it with the intercooler smashed up against the horns. We would have not put that much force on it to dent the intercooler when istalling it. I can also tell by the lower mounting tabs that the intercooler/front bumper was hit up against something after it had been given back to Jeff.Please dont try to make it out like we are a buch of morons that dont know whay they are doing.We have been in tons of magazines,built numerous 1000+WHP small displacement engines and have been in business for well over 10 years. Has anyone else on this board done more for the good old watercooled Porsche community in general, or accomplished anything remotely close to what SFR has in the past 10 years? I think not.

I find it kind of funny that over 30+ other 968's on the road have this intercooler set-up, most of them tracked and there is no coolant or air temp issues.This is why we did what we did.It was not ideal but for us it was better then cutting his front bumper support up like you did to fit the intercooler. We could not accept this sort of liability,I hope you can udnerstand and appreciate that.What happened if he is in a crash with no support bar.You can ask Greddy that after they got sued for millions when someone crashed and died in a car with one of their turbos kits that requred cutting the front aluminum bumper brace. Now if you are going to do somethng about it then that would be fine.But for us,that would still not be fine when the lawyers got through with us.LOL. From the looks of it, you cant reinforce that aluminum bumper support enough to protect Jeff in case of a crash.You would have to make a new one out of some tubular steel.







i yanked that thing out of there and figured out a way to stick a 951 intercooler in there, but behind the bumper, and clear of the radiator area



before i started pre intercooler temps were 180 plus and nearly 150 after the intercooler

afterward it is 169 and 106 - not a bad improvement at all







How can the post supercharger(before air even enters the intercooler) temps be lower after you install a new intercooler? LOL.They would be the same unless you changed the blower. The blower is still pumping out the same amount of heat regardless of what it blows into.Your testing is flswed so it would mean your results are inaccurate. Get those charge air temps up to 180 with the stock intercooler in there and see what sort of post intercooler temps you are seeing.Then you have an apples to apples comparison.Right now it is just apples to bananas!

I am also interested in what sort of test equipment you are using.Who makes the thermocouple and gauge?If you are using an infared heat gun then that is a completely unfair and unreal test you have done.The stock 944t end tanks are a thick heavy casting with alot of surface area and material and it wil read alot lower then the 5052 .120 wall sheetmetal we use for our end tanks.There is also paint on your stock intercooler which will skew the readings even more.

We have tested the SFR intercooler extensively on the dyno,on the street and on the track and it cools much better then the stock 944t intercooler. We have seen over 25+WHP on some applications on a dyno with no real air movement over the intercooler. I would love to see some of your datalogs with the temp decrease you seen. There is a ton of data about the 944T intercoolers efficiency on the Rennlist from street guys to track junkies.In fact,we have actually seen the complete opposite of what you are saying about the intercooler we used on Jeffs car(which is the same one in our supercharger system and the same one in a customers 531WHP 3.0L 944t).



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbBj8xiWmSg



We have seen charge air temps higher then 250F on the track pre-intercooler with 129F post intercooler temps.The roots blower on Jeffs car is making more then 169F at 6-8 psi. Probably in the range of 225-275F especially on a pretty inefficient Eaton M90 blower like Jeff has.So you are saying that our intercoler does not work as well as the factory one with no real data to back it up? I am a bit suprised by this. As a matter of fact I amazed since we have a car that makes more then double what Jeffs car is doing and it has the intercooler, in front of the radiator, 531WHP and he lives in Az where it is much hotter.How did we do that and poor Jeffs car is a overheating nightmare. Hmmmm.......maybe something else is gong on.







water temp gauge used to read 10 o'clock when you were on it, and 9-9:15 cruising - now reads 9:30 and 8:30 respectively

Also, the car now hits max boost, where it was only hitting about 80% before - seems to run harder too







10 to 9:30 ,9.15 to 8:45? Are you serious? This is how you are judging temperatures on a gauge that is already pretty inaccurate????? I would have expected you to use a real mechanical temp gauge if you are going to be"testing". We monitored the colant temp through the Motronic software and the coolant temps on Jeffs car never went above 210F on the dyno,in the summer with very little airflow over the radiator.

How did you determined what the max boost should be on 91 octane?







and i'm not done by a long shot - haven't even begun to fix all the other stuff that all those other people did







I guess some of the other people did what they did because one of their friends and I beleive... your friend called them and said help this guy out.I sold him my 968 and it needs a little help.He is a good guy, take car of him.Do what you can and take it easy on him and make it relatively quick too.So I did just that.When Jeffs care came in,it was running a good amount of boost,tuned for a water inejction system that was bascially not working, pinging and close to blowing up.If I remember correctly it was making about 205WHP which is what a stock 968 makes!!!!!!!None of this has ever been mentioned.I wonder why?When the 968 left,it was making 270 ft/lb and 270WHP.It was not pinging,overheating or anyting else.I would not have let a car leave like that.This was abut 2-3 years ago.Jeff had called me sometime after that saying his car was running hot and we talked about it.I suggested getting a maual coolant temp gauge to see what the actual temp were since the gauge can be inaccurate and your dont really know the exact temp you are at.From there we could find a solution but we never heard back from him.









why am i messing with this? well, besides the sickness that just won't let me leave things alone, if i can get this working, it shines a small (repeat small) light on the possibility of a package down the road







If you cannot re-flash the ECU then your are destined for not such a great outcome,IMHO. Using an adjustable fuel pressure regulator is fine but ignition timing will be your worse enemy with this car.It is not about being too rich.We had to tune it rich to prevent it from detnation,even pulling timing out wasnt enough.If you havent tuned a fuel injected, hi-compression engine, a roots blower, on 91 octane before, then you are in for a real teat. How is it going to run when the A/C is on and 110F outside? Right now it is nice and cool in California.But it wont be in a few months.

Is it going to ping? If it does there is nothing you can do about it unless you run a stand alone, reflash the ECU or hopefully put some of the fuel pressure back into it.When the car was brought to us initially,it was pinging badly and right on the verge of self destruction.For the money we got paid,we did the best we could to try and get this car sorted out to some extent.It would have taken alot more money to really get this thing in tip top shape but unfortunately,that was not an option.I also think there is something to be said simply because this car is STILL RUNNING and has not blown up and it has been about 3 years since it left here.Taking it on as a project for your friend like you are doing is one thing.I applaud you for that but runnng a business to pay the bills is something entirely different.Unfortunately,we had to approach this from a business standpoint and do what we could to stay within a budget.



Finally, I would be willing to share some of the data we had on Jeffs car when it was being tuned.But in return I would like to get that sponsership information I have been waiting for over 6 months for.............Can someone please get on that for me!!! Actually, forget about it. I see how it is here now. You protect us by saying they will remain nameless.Thanks but no thanks. We dot need to remain nameless. It is all out on the table now. I will be awaiting your rebuttal. Thank you and good luck with your new project.



Tim

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[flash]

well, i didn't want to start anything back and forth here, and was not going to get into any fingerpointing or anything like that, because frankly i don't have the whole story - i am not taking shots at you, your shop, or your products - i have no first hand dealings with you, and consequently have no opinion



as for this project, i have no real idea where it was when you started, what the terms were, who said what or anything - that's why i didn't mention any names, and only spoke about the intercooler - it would no have been fair to say anything else having only one side of the equation



i also know that there were other people involved, and am not entirely clear on who did what and when - again, why i did not speak to anything other than the intercooler



on that subject, perhaps my standards are higher than yours - frankly i don't really care what you have done on other cars, or what experiences you have had - the intercooler location was poor, period - it goes against all basic engineering - due to the choice of intercooler, the plumbing was also less than perfect (though the welds were very pretty) - if that's how you do it on other cars...................



i understand about not wanting to modify the bumper cover - as a shop, the liability for screw up is daunting - jeff was quite fine with it though, and in fact wants to open it up for the turbo inlet, which will further improve the cooling of the intercooler - as for the bumper itself, that is a 5mph bumper, and does NOTHING in a crash other than cause damage to transfer from one side of the car to the other, frequently resulting in a car being totaled which would otherwise been repairable - in a real collision you would be much better off without it, or better still, 2 independent bumpers - we discussed this prior to doing the modification, and jeff is fine with that too



the paint on the intercooler is on the front side only - it will not significantly effect anything



yes i used a laser, but i used it on the plumbing right next to the supercharger, not the tanks - it was apples and apples - it flows better and is cooler now



the temps going down after the supercharger yet before the intercooler should be obvious - if you know anything at all about superchargers, then you would know that restriction in the system WILL cause a rise in temps



the car is NOT now and has never been truly "running" - definition of "running" is obviously less for you than for me - making it out of the garage and to the customer's home is not "running" - i demand that it run just as it did before the supercharger was added, as in OEM configuration - otherwise it is a less than stellar installation - compromise is not acceptable - this car may or may not ever get there, but it is already better, and the things done were a no brainer, and painfully obvious - i have full anticipation of it getting better still



coolant temps are simple - before and after indications are valid - it doesn't matter if the guage is "accurate" or not - it still indicates a value, which went down when the restriction was removed



with this type of system, max boost is largely determined by engine speed and pulley size - at perfect flow, you see max boost - at restricted flow, you don't



there is no excuse for running rich - it is not the way to correct anything - if it pings, address the final compression ratio, lower the boost, or address timing - you don't fatten it up to quite it down



it already has a stand alone system - we will see whether or not that is necessary - he already has it, so there is no need to delete it, but i believe that the job can be done with the factory electronics - the problem with that idea is going to be the controls and sensors that are no longer factory - we may end up sticking with the system



as for approaching this from a "business standpoint" the first thing to consider should be whether or not you can complete the job requested - i have no idea what went down, and don't care - if you can't finish, then don't start - if you get into it and figure out later than you can't, tough - you eat it - that's "the cost of doing business" - a good businessman knows that sometimes you overstep your abilities, and a job becomes a loser - that doesn't mean you stick the customer for your inability to adequately foresee the outcome of a job - i am not accusing you of any of this, but merely stating the appropriate way to conduct business



as for the sponsorship information, you never responded to the items in the very detailed letter that was sent to you, which is a pre-requisite to being considered as an advertiser here - we therefore did not pursue it further - we assumed you did not want to submit the requested information - be aware that we do not easily or immediately take people's money to advertise here - we are not doing this for the money - we are doing this because we love the car, and want people to be able to enjoy them to their fullest - we seek out vendors who make or sell things that would be good for the cars or their owners - we consider each such company carefully, and insist that their products be worthy - we would consider yours as soon as we have positive responses from the purchasers, and data to support any performance claims - to date we have nothing from you - please send along the things addressed in the letter, and i would be happy to sit down with the partners and discuss you becoming an advertiser - we welcome any and all vendors who have something to contribute to the 968 community

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[SpeedForceRacing]

[quote name='flash' date='Feb 1 2009, 02:10 PM' post='66388']

well, i didn't want to start anything back and forth here, and was not going to get into any fingerpointing or anything like that, because frankly i don't have the whole story - i am not taking shots at you, your shop, or your products - i have no first hand dealings with you, and consequently have no opinion



as for this project, i have no real idea where it was when you started, what the terms were, who said what or anything - that's why i didn't mention any names, and only spoke about the intercooler - it would no have been fair to say anything else having only one side of the equation



i also know that there were other people involved, and am not entirely clear on who did what and when - again, why i did not speak to anything other than the intercooler



on that subject, perhaps my standards are higher than yours - frankly i don't really care what you have done on other cars, or what experiences you have had - the intercooler location was poor, period - it goes against all basic engineering - due to the choice of intercooler, the plumbing was also less than perfect (though the welds were very pretty) - if that's how you do it on other cars...................









I know you dont care about any of that Flash......But you cannot deny the vast amount of experience we have which is btw, uch greater then yours in terms of performance modifications. I have already pointed out your flawed testing procedure.You have an excuse and in your eyes you are correct. You are also a moderator that can do as he pleases on here.The intercooler placement is fine and has been fine for everyone except for Jeff.Hmmmmm.......go figure.I a sure a "real" engineer woud be olling over laughing about testing with an infared temp gun and basing that as conclusive data.













i understand about not wanting to modify the bumper cover - as a shop, the liability for screw up is daunting - jeff was quite fine with it though, and in fact wants to open it up for the turbo inlet, which will further improve the cooling of the intercooler - as for the bumper itself, that is a 5mph bumper, and does NOTHING in a crash other than cause damage to transfer from one side of the car to the other, frequently resulting in a car being totaled which would otherwise been repairable - in a real collision you would be much better off without it, or better still, 2 independent bumpers - we discussed this prior to doing the modification, and jeff is fine with that too



the paint on the intercooler is on the front side only - it will not significantly effect anything



yes i used a laser, but i used it on the plumbing right next to the supercharger, not the tanks - it was apples and apples - it flows better and is cooler now







Bullsh*t.The stock intecooler can only flow 500cfm max and our intercooler will flow well over 700CFM.We use a larger 2.5" inlet(which will have less of a pressure drop) then the small factory inlet.





the temps going down after the supercharger yet before the intercooler should be obvious - if you know anything at all about superchargers, then you would know that restriction in the system WILL cause a rise in temps







Yes but there is less of a restiction which is why we see power gains by using our intercooler over a stock ntercoler.I wont argue with you on this becasue the proof is in the pudding.However you ever seen anyway using a stock 944t intercooler mae over 500WHP?We have ade in excess of that easily withurs.So which one cools and flows better?







the car is NOT now and has never been truly "running" - definition of "running" is obviously less for you than for me - making it out of the garage and to the customer's home is not "running" - i demand that it run just as it did before the supercharger was added, as in OEM configuration - otherwise it is a less than stellar installation - compromise is not acceptable - this car may or may not ever get there, but it is already better, and the things done were a no brainer, and painfully obvious - i have full anticipation of it getting better still





It is not less for us.It drove good,was within a safe operational temperature,made good power,has proven to be reliable.The only thing that came up way after the fact was the coolant temp issue.







coolant temps are simple - before and after indications are valid - it doesn't matter if the guage is "accurate" or not - it still indicates a value, which went down when the restriction was removed





Using a clock references for your conclusive testing is a bit of a joke.You dont even know if the car was runnng hot in the first place!!!!!It could have been in an acceptable range had you been able to monitor the actual coolant temps.





with this type of system, max boost is determined by engine speed and pulley size - at perfect flow, you see max boost - at restricted flow, you don't - i don't see what is so complicated here





Ofcourse he blower is belt dirven but you make it out like you mysteriosu;y picked up all kinds of boost becasue what you were seeing was not max boost.I hope you were able to retard the timing for that extra boost.







there is no excuse for running rich - that is a cop out - it is not the way to correct anything - if it pings, address the final compression ratio, lower the boost, or address timing - you don't fatten it up to quite it down





We did all of that except for lowering the compresion which was no an option.I have tuned over 500 car and my tracked record is near perfect so someone that has tune no cars should really keep his opinion to himself when it comes to tuning.Reading stuff in a book is alot different then actually doing it Flash.







it already has a stand alone system - we will see whether or not that is necessary - he already has it, so there is no need to delete it, but i believe that the job can be done with the factory electronics - the problem with that idea is going to be the controls and sensors that are no longer factory - we may end up sticking with the system



as for approaching this from a "business standpoint" the first thing to consider should be whether or not you can complete the job requested - i have no idea what went down, and don't care - if you can't finish, then don't start - if you get into it and figure out later than you can't, tough - you eat it - that's "the cost of doing business" - a good businessman knows that sometimes you overstep your abilities, and a job becomes a loser - that doesn't mean you stick the customer for your inability to adequately foresee the outcome of a job - i am not accusing you of any of this, but merely stating the appropriate way to conduct business





We always finish a job unless the customer cant pay.It is that simple.







as for the sponsorship information, you never responded to the items in the very detailed letter that was sent to you, which is a pre-requisite to being considered as an advertiser here - we therefore did not pursue it further - we assumed you did not want to submit the requested information - be aware that we do not easily or immediately take people's money to advertise here - we are not doing this for the money - we are doing this because we love the car, and want people to be able to enjoy them to their fullest - we seek out vendors who make or sell things that would be good for the cars or their owners - we consider each such company carefully, and insist that their products be worthy - we would consider yours as soon as we have positive responses from the purchasers, and data to support any performance claims - to date we have nothing from you - please send along the things addressed in the letter, and i would be happy to sit down with the partners and discuss you becoming an advertiser - we welcome any and all vendors who have something to contribute to the 968 community





You sent me one email saying you would talk it over with other members here and get back to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Apparently in this tough economy,968 forums is prospering and can do without new sponsers..You make it out like this is the biggest and best internet forum on the web.LOL.You need to do all of these things to become a sponser since it is not about money but the love for the cars that is why when I post abut our products you remove the posts saying I am not a sponser but whenI try to becomes one, you just blow it off.You say our products are not worthy and we have no results.Our products have been around longer then this internet forum!!!!! I guess the 30+ people with supercharger systems with huge gains in power do not exist even though they post on these forums.It is just a figment of all of our imaginiations!!!!!Good day.





Tim

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[flash]

it really isn't necessary to copy and paste everything, especialy if you aren't going to italicize it or something to make it stand out differently than the rest - it makes it incredibly difficult to read without that



i also don't know why you are so defensive - i have said nothing negative about anything other than the intercooler setup - if you are reading anything else into that, that is all on you - i am not taking advantage of any moderator position - if i were, i would merely have deleted your posts - we want you to air your issues, and feel free to speak about your work - however, you should expect that others who have experience with it may also do the same



without getting into and "measuring" body parts, i have been at this for about 30 years, so i don't know about any comparisons of experience having any particular disparity, and it isn't relevant anyway - i'm not going to get into how many cars i've done and how many you've done - it isn't important - but, tuned over 500 968s? wow - that's a lot (any other cars are not relevant, so cannot be included in any such conversations) - 30 supercharged ones? any down here? i'd love to check one out



regardless, we are talking only about this intercooler installation, and it was not good - it is better now



the "testing" was simple - take measurements before - take measurements after - use the same test equipment with the same conditions - it doesn't have to be "conclusive" - it only has to show dramatic improvement to be valid at showing there is a difference



for the purposes of operating temps, the only definition of "acceptable" is NO HIGHER THAN WITHOUT THE SUPERCHARGER - it's better now, but it still is not there yet



using the dash temp guage was for the purposes of showing the negative effect of the location of the intercooler - anyone knows that you don't stick something hot in front of your radiator and not expect it to have adverse affects - the moment we got that thing away from the radiator, the temps went down - let's see - run 70 degree air over the radiator, or run 180 degree air over the radiator?



we didn't "pick up" any boost - we saw a reduction in the restriction that was limiting boost



by the way - there was another shop that worked on the car after you that also found the intercooler to be lacking, restrictive, and poorly installed - they also did some things to improve on the tuning after you were "done" - clearly the job was not finished - i don't know anything about the deal, what you were hired to do, what the terms were, or any limitations or complications, but it was not "finished" - and will let jeff chime in on that



but, it still isn't "done" - nor is it "running" - it limps along, runs hot, doesn't idle, runs fat, and won't hit redline well



as for sponsorship, yes 968 forums is doing fine - it isn't a "for profit" business, so it does not need or intend to make a profit - we need only enough to keep it going - so no, we don't NEED any more sponsors - that does not mean that we don't want any - of course we want to have vendors advertise their wares here - we provide that service for them and their customers, to proliferate these great cars and owners - we do not do it for the money - i could easily support this site myself, without any advertisers, or even the partners - frankly the members do more to support it than all of the advertisers combined



you make assumptions related to our opinions of your product's worthiness about which we have made no comments - we have never said anything one way or the other, and in fact have deliberately avoided that - we only state that we want proof before allowing advertising from ANYBODY - we apologize if you feel picked on, but perhaps there is something to it that we don't know about - regardless, this can be easily remedied by providing a list of happy 968 customers, and data on the 968 products - we expect that of any new advertiser - be aware we have no interest in testimonials from non-968 people, or on non-968 products - that work is entirely irrelevant



anything further on this really should be either on the phone or in person - i would be happy to pop down to the shop - i am not far away - we would very much love to see a new vendor for these cars - i would welcome the opportunity to inspect the operation and discuss your 968 successes in person

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[SpeedForceRacing]

I am getting defensive because we have used this product for many years on all sorts of applications and simply do not have issues. On top of that Vortech Supercharger Systems uses this same intercooler made by Spearco/Turbonetics in a production supercharger system for the 350Z. Except it is used to cool upwards of 365WHP on a hi-compression engine.The front bumper area of the 350Z and layout of the intercooler,radiator,air inlet on front air dam, etc...... is very similiar to the 968. And it works great on the 350Z(as well as the 968 supercharger system for us)there are no issues managing charge air temps,cooling system issues or anything else.And the 350Z although very good.... does not have the German engineering that the 968 does.



My point is that the intercooler we chose is more then adequate for the task to be provided and it gets enough airflow to cool the charge air and allows enough air to keep the cooling system in proper operating range. I have hard data to back this up and would be happy to provide it to you and anyone else that wants to see it. You my friend have not provided anythng of the sort and yet have made an attempt to discredit our product,IMHO.



If Jeffs car is sputtering, not holding an idle, overheating,etc...... then I am sure something has transpired between now and 2-3 years ago.There were no guarantees of any sort, simply because we didnt want to accept liability for a supercharger system we didnt design.We just worked with what we had within a budget. I am glad to see this car is still running.



As far as sponsership goes......what am I trying out for the Secret Service or what????? Apparently you guys dont adhere to some of the normal guidelines for sponsership like some of the huge companies like Internet Brands,etc......As far as writing a letter with a list of happy 968 customers goes.....No problem.Where do you want me to send it> How many happy 968 owners do you need that have on of our superchargers, engines, headers, turbos, etc.....on thier car, report to you for my consideration as a sponser???? KUNZ is one. He posts on here and you can pm him if you want. How many more? I can provide contact numbers for you if required. What wil they need to provide? The bill of sale from us, a car fax report, a picture in front of a current newspaper with thier 968, a video of them driving their 968?



If you want to come down to our fine establishment, the door is always open......9-7 Monday through Friday and 12-5 on Saturday. Maybe we can discuss what we have done for ths community and the 944 series community as a whole? Maybe we can discuss how Eric Sandavol who started this board had one of our supercharger systems for quite some time and it proved to be reliable and powerful. Last talk I had with him, he was happy but had got rid of the car for a 996. Wait, that is two for my list. How many more now???????? Maybe we can talk about how Pete/RS Barn was buying stuff from SFR before there was an RS Barn or 968 forum????? I mean really.............you can sit there knowing we have been around as long as we have, you personally have talked to me on the phone on a couple occasions,and we have provided a great service and product for the 968 community and yet you ask me to prove ourselves even further.Like I said no problem but honestly speaking,that is a crock of sh*t. So anyways I have two happy 968 customers listed you can contact. How many more do I need? Thank you for your time.

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[SpeedForceRacing]

And I do have undeniable proof that you are"picking on us". I had start a thread about gauging interest for a 968 turbocharger conversion that we have been working on.I answered a couple questions and listed some tentative pricing.You immediately removed the thread and pm'd me about becoming a sponser to promote our product because I was going against the guidelines since I isted some pricing.



Now I see Hayward Performances has a thread gauging interest on an ITB system for the 968.They have listed tentative pricing and yet there post was not removed like my post was. They are breaking the guidelines you have set forth but there is no recourse from you guys. Where is the difference between what they have done and what we have done? Why would you eliminate our post and allows theirs to stay.did they not break the rules as much? Please explain in detail!!!!!!!!! They have done nothing for this community and we have been doing things for these cars for over 10 years. On top of that you have edited postings if they contain the word SFR, you have closed down threads that others have started befre I could respond.I could go on and on.....Where is the love? Where is the respect ? Where is the fairness that you preach Flash? It is easy to see you are "picking on us" and singleing us out. We could be a gret asset to these boards,you being in close proximity could allow us to work together develping new products for these cars.I have acess to all the CNC parts for Jeffs supercharger covnersion including cad files,actual production parts including plenums,runners,etc.......So why are you doing this? It could be benficial all around yet you are choosing to lock us in the closet so to speak.Thank you for your time.

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[flash]

ok - i've had enough fun here, and since you insist on disregarding my advice to take this up personally............



first off jeff's car NEVER ran well - that's why he kept taking it to people AFTER he left you - he was never happy with it, and wanted it to run right - i have the invoices in the thousands to prove it - no matter what you say, you did NOT do the job he really wanted - if you had, he never would have ended up at my garage, or anyone else's - i don't know if it was a budget thing, or a miscommunication or what - frankly i don't care - the only thing i know is that it came to another shop for tuning after you because it didn't run right - he spent more thousands there - then it came to me because it still wasn't right - after all that, it is now better, but still not done - at least i'm not charging him though



second, regardless of what successes you have with that intercooler on a 350Z, this is not a 350Z - it doesn't work here on this car with this setup, and removing it worked BETTER - this is EASILY proven



third, terms like "adequate" and "good enough" are just not good enough, and certainly not what i would ever use to describe anything i do - again, this may merely go to a different level of expectation - to me there is "right" and there is "less than right" - "adequate" and "good enough" are "B" and "C" grades - i only accept "A"



fourth, if you didn't want to take responsibility, you should not have taken on the job - that's a bad business decision - been there - paid for that - the bottom line though is that you don't get to work on the car, charge him for it, and then cop out by blaming it on him - that's why i offered to take a look, and spend time sorting it out AT NO CHARGE - we are on our way - it's already better, and it only took me a few hours to undo and fix some of the obvious mistakes



fifth, internet brands is no kind of guideline or benchmark - they are the problem with internet sites, and not the solution or "norm" - they will take anybody's money, without regard to the integrity of a business - we will not - we are VERY SELECTIVE - we will only take fees from proven vendors providing products and/or services that are beneficial to the 968 community - every potential advertiser goes through this screening process - there have been quite a few that we have chosen not to accept for those reasons - we feel that this gives a real sense of responsibility and earnest belief in a company that transcends the all too common commercial plastering of ads - if we allow somebody to advertise here, you can be sure that we believe in the company - as i said, we do this because we love it, not for the money



as for your satisfied customers, i don't know kunz personally, or anything about his setup, but i will contact him - thank you



i do know that eric told me he had all kinds of problems with his car, it never ran right, complained about you and your service, and said he ultimately sold the car because of the problems - i had the opportunity to see and touch that setup and his car myself, and was NOT impressed - it just didn't run all that well - sure it pulled in the mids, but everything else was a mess - he gave me the story on it, from his perspective, and almost the first thing out of his mouth was the all too common, "it still needs some tuning" excuse - if i were you i would not be citing him as a prime example for the purposes of advertising



as far as i know pete has only an intake manifold from you, which by the way dented his hood because somebody didn't think that through, and is now i believe a doorstop or a planter, and for sale cheap - i drove that car and it ran very poorly until he yanked that thing off of there



i think you have me confused with somebody else - i have a vague recollection of PERHAPS speaking to you VERY BRIEFLY on the phone ONCE - certainly it was not any kind of long conversation, detailed or involved, nearly 2 years ago, and definitely not more than once



all that aside, and in spite of the second hand information and stories, i am STILL open to seeing what you have to offer first hand - i keep an open mind, and hope for the best from everyone - i have no opinions about you or your shop - i would need a lot more information to form those - i can be there any time after tuesday, pretty much any time you choose

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[flash]

i just saw the edit showing the addition of the last paragraph



in response to the thread you mention, we had conversations with hayward, and all further talks ceased until something could be shown - his "gauging of interest" is entirely different than selling a product or service, particularly from a vendor already in the 968 arena - we cautioned him against that anyway however, and requested that he not do any such thing further until there was something to show - perhaps we should have deleted the post, but if i recall, there was already a response to it, unlike yours - we don't have any concrete rules about this kind of thing, and do the best we can - this all happened behind the scenes, just as i requested you do - many things go on that are not on the board - this is the appropriate way to conduct business - not everything should be publicly displayed



to my knowledge i have not edited any posts regarding SFR - please direct me to where that happened - i have been particularly careful not to do anything like that - i just don't know enough about you to make any such moves - yes, we are careful not to allow anyone to sell products or advertise their services here without becoming an advertiser, but we have not had to do anything in that regard beyond asking you to provide the things requested in the letter



we are not singling you out at all - i think you are reading too much into this - please feel free to contact me with a time to meet - i would love to work all of this out for the betterment of the 968 community

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[SpeedForceRacing]

[quote name='flash' post='66405' date='Feb 1 2009, 11:33 PM']ok - i've had enough fun here, and since you insist on disregarding my advice to take this up personally............



first off jeff's car NEVER ran well - that's why he kept taking it to people AFTER he left you - he was never happy with it, and wanted it to run right - i have the invoices in the thousands to prove it - no matter what you say, you did NOT do the job he really wanted - if you had, he never would have ended up at my garage, or anyone else's - i don't know if it was a budget thing, or a miscommunication or what - frankly i don't care - the only thing i know is that it came to another shop for tuning after you because it didn't run right - he spent more thousands there - then it came to me because it still wasn't right - after all that, it is now better, but still not done - at least i'm not charging him though



second, regardless of what successes you have with that intercooler on a 350Z, this is not a 350Z - it doesn't work here on this car with this setup, and removing it worked BETTER - this is EASILY proven



third, terms like "adequate" and "good enough" are just not good enough, and certainly not what i would ever use to describe anything i do - again, this may merely go to a different level of expectation - to me there is "right" and there is "less than right" - "adequate" and "good enough" are "B" and "C" grades - i only accept "A"



fourth, if you didn't want to take responsibility, you should not have taken on the job - that's a bad business decision - been there - paid for that - the bottom line though is that you don't get to work on the car, charge him for it, and then cop out by blaming it on him - that's why i offered to take a look, and spend time sorting it out AT NO CHARGE - we are on our way - it's already better, and it only took me a few hours to undo and fix some of the obvious mistakes



fifth, internet brands is no kind of guideline or benchmark - they are the problem with internet sites, and not the solution or "norm" - they will take anybody's money, without regard to the integrity of a business - we will not - we are VERY SELECTIVE - we will only take fees from proven vendors providing products and/or services that are beneficial to the 968 community - every potential advertiser goes through this screening process - there have been quite a few that we have chosen not to accept for those reasons - we feel that this gives a real sense of responsibility and earnest belief in a company that transcends the all too common commercial plastering of ads - if we allow somebody to advertise here, you can be sure that we believe in the company - as i said, we do this because we love it, not for the money



as for your satisfied customers, i don't know kunz personally, or anything about his setup, but i will contact him - thank you



i do know that eric told me he had all kinds of problems with his car, it never ran right, complained about you and your service, and said he ultimately sold the car because of the problems - i had the opportunity to see and touch that setup and his car myself, and was NOT impressed - it just didn't run all that well - sure it pulled in the mids, but everything else was a mess - he gave me the story on it, from his perspective, and almost the first thing out of his mouth was the all too common, "it still needs some tuning" excuse - if i were you i would not be citing him as a prime example for the purposes of advertising



as far as i know pete has only an intake manifold from you, which by the way dented his hood because somebody didn't think that through, and is now i believe a doorstop or a planter, and for sale cheap - i drove that car and it ran very poorly until he yanked that thing off of there



i think you have me confused with somebody else - i have a vague recollection of PERHAPS speaking to you VERY BRIEFLY on the phone ONCE - certainly it was not any kind of long conversation, detailed or involved, nearly 2 years ago, and definitely not more than once



all that aside, and in spite of the second hand information and stories, i am STILL open to seeing what you have to offer first hand - i keep an open mind, and hope for the best from everyone - i have no opinions about you or your shop - i would need a lot more information to form those - i can be there any time after tuesday, pretty much any time you choose[/quote]





Sure..... we'll get together soon. I'll contact you. I would love to become a sponser here. That would be great. I can anticipate the warm welcoming already.

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[SpeedForceRacing]

[quote name='flash' post='66408' date='Feb 2 2009, 12:06 AM']i just saw the edit showing the addition of the last paragraph



in response to the thread you mention, we had conversations with hayward, and all further talks ceased until something could be shown - his "gauging of interest" is entirely different than selling a product or service, particularly from a vendor already in the 968 arena - we cautioned him against that anyway however, and requested that he not do any such thing further until there was something to show - perhaps we should have deleted the post, but if i recall, there was already a response to it, unlike yours - we don't have any concrete rules about this kind of thing, and do the best we can - this all happened behind the scenes, just as i requested you do - many things go on that are not on the board - this is the appropriate way to conduct business - not everything should be publicly displayed



to my knowledge i have not edited any posts regarding SFR - please direct me to where that happened - i have been particularly careful not to do anything like that - i just don't know enough about you to make any such moves - yes, we are careful not to allow anyone to sell products or advertise their services here without becoming an advertiser, but we have not had to do anything in that regard beyond asking you to provide the things requested in the letter



we are not singling you out at all - i think you are reading too much into this - please feel free to contact me with a time to meet - i would love to work all of this out for the betterment of the 968 community[/quote]





Here is one of the threads.The rest were taken down and wont show up in the search engine.



http://www.968forums.com/index.php?showtopic=6271



You edited the title, gave your impression of our kit and how it incomplete it is and then closed the thread before I could come up with a reponse.Everythng you said oyu havent done,you did in this one thread.I dont understand how you are not seeing this.The fact is our supercharger system for the 968 has been super complete,reliable,dirvable,excellent idle qaulity,etc...for years now. After Erics car and the 9M tuning,we went with a completely new apporach that has worked well and been ultra-reliable(this was also my response to that thread).Maybe you dont think you are being unfair with us but I think otherwise.Take care.

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[flash]

don't laugh - i don't get emotional about this stuff - for me, when it comes to vendors it's all about the proof - pure and simple - i'm a bottom line guy and don't listen to BS - i'm just too old for that - if you have something to sell, i expect it to work - nothing more - nothing less - no excuses - no half way - no personal nonsense - no back and forth - no finger pointing - i call them as i see them, and i don't pull any punches - if it works, i'll tell the world - if it doesn't work, i'll tell the world



that being said, i would love to meet - there aren't enough resources here in this community and we can't afford to be at odds - i for one welcome the opportunity to meet a new friend



feel free to contact me at your convenience



arrrgh - i was typing when you were



i closed the thread you are talking about but it really had nothing to do with you - the thread was getting ugly - there were no other edits, closures or anything on any other threads - we have not made any other such moves to my knowledge

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[flash]

by the way, you failed to mention that when i closed the thread, i did so with an explanation, and an apology to you for letting it get so out of hand and digressing from the original topic - almost the entire thread was about something OTHER than you or your products - i further requested that a new thread be started to pick up the original topic - the only other option was to delete the entire content of the thread, and we, as a group, did not feel that this was appropriate

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[flash]

anyway - back on topic



jeff will be back soon, and then we can dive back into this - the first order of business is to get an air cleaner in there that is large enough to provide the amount of air the engine needs - so far that hasn't happened



then, we need to give that air cleaner cold air, so we will be creating an "isolated" area that will at least mitigate some of the heat conduction and induction from the draw pipe



then, we can get the FPR installed and try to get some of the black soot off of the tailpipe



then it's off to the idle control valve, which does not seem to be working



we'll see where it is from there



should have some results later this week

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[944S3Coupe]

I'll be watching this thread for your results. A supercharger might be just what I need for that bump in power I'd like..

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[raydog]

What the hell, it's starting to sound like it's pretty one sided around here lately..... nuf said!

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[rxter]

[quote name='flash' post='66393' date='Feb 1 2009, 01:35 PM']30 supercharged ones? any down here? i'd love to check one out[/quote]



Me too. I can only imagine what this beast would be with all that WHPASS. If anyone has the set up in SoCal please speak up so we can get in line for a drive (other than you Jeff, of course).

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[flash]

raydog - not sure what you mean



i'm just playing with the mechanical issues - working them out one by one, and it's getting better - i really don't have any other opinions about anything else



jeff came by again today - figured out a couple more things to reduce underhood temps, and played with the idle some - should be able to pull another 30 or 40 degrees out of it



runs smoothly now all the way to redline - idles at about 1200 (down from a bit higher) - not entirely happy enough with that yet - still running too rich - will be working on that when the AFPR gets here - will also be playing with the suspect idle control valve at that time



still haven't even plugged in the laptop

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[SpeedForceRacing]

[quote name='rxter' post='66543' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:39 PM']Me too. I can only imagine what this beast would be with all that WHPASS. If anyone has the set up in SoCal please speak up so we can get in line for a drive (other than you Jeff, of course).[/quote]





One of our customers Dale had one in Beverly Hills but he sold the car about six months ago. I will find out if it is still up in LA.

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[flash]

sounds like an opportunity for a big rendezvous

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[jeffski1]

Well, I just received the Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator today. Hopefully, this will allow us to dial in the fuel flow requirements of the bigger injectors. The car is definitely running rich.

The bigger issue I think is going to be figuring out how to get the car to idle normally. None of the shops I've had the car at have been able to do that. Three big issue have always plagued the car since I've had it: cold starting, catching idle coming off high rpm, and selection of the a/c on. The last two issues were solved (I use that term loosely) by cranking up the idle. The last shop to work on the car left the idle at a staggering 1400rpm [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif[/img] That worked, but what a crappy fix. There's got to be a better way.

The next time I can hook up with Flash, we'll get that AFPR installed (5 min job). Then I think we're going to look into the operation of the idle control valve and maybe play with the engine managment system.

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