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Stage 3 Supercharger injector question
#1

Hi Guys,

 

This is probably a dumb question but going over the installation instructions for the stage 3 kit and it says to start at the rearmost injector with the lowest flow rate and work towards the front increasing in flow rate with highest flow at the front. 

 

OK here is the DUMB question, is the front where the nose of the car is or standing in front of the car and front being the back of the motor??? Im thinking the front is the front towards the bumper not that rear of the engine??

 

If I am correct starting from the nose of the car nearest the timing belt my flow rate of injectors should be as follows   73,  40,  28,  19, the 19 flow rate  injector will be in the back of motor next to fuel pressure regulator

 

thanks guys

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#2

Your flow rates shouldn't be that far off, only 1 or 2 or 3 really, not that wide of swing. You want your highest rate on cyl 1, so the front of the car.
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Current:
2016 Cayman S
Former:
94 968 Cab 6 Spd. Black/Cashmere D1R SC
86.5 928 Garnet Red Metallic
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#3

Hi,

 

Yes the numbers I listed are the actual flow rates etched into the injectors. Do you think there is something wrong with them? I would assume Flash would have mot sent them if they were not correct???

 

I think im going to set them as follows starting from the front near timing belt and ending at the fuel pressure regulator

73,  40,  28,  19 and see what happens

 

Thank you

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#4

Ok, that is the percentage of difference number. I forget what the actual LB number is on those. You will be fine, your order is good.
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Current:
2016 Cayman S
Former:
94 968 Cab 6 Spd. Black/Cashmere D1R SC
86.5 928 Garnet Red Metallic
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#5

Awesome Thank you!!!

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#6

My turbo used same injector rate across the board. The 951 style fuel rail  had a damper on fuel rail to handle shock from injector opening. This due to 2 injectors firing at same time.

The 968 uses multipoint injection and only fires 1 injector at a time. These are also pretty small injectors and don't create a shock wave.

On my High compression race engine I use same injectors without damper. I make a bunch more power (than stage 3 kit) and get equal fuel in each cylinder. I use exhaust gas temp probes in each header to test.

There is now way a 73 LB injector is possible on this engine. Nor 19 Lb. Just must be some numbering system that was designed for some reason.  ????

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#7

the number scribed on the injectors are reference numbers only.  they do not represent anything.  the flow rates are on the sheet included with the injectors.

 

the reason for the order is merely to put the lower flow (assuming there is one) nearer the fuel source, and the higher flow farther away.  this would help balance the pressure, as all 4 injectors are getting the fuel from the same charged pipe.  each time the injector fires, pressure in the pipe drops (admittedly a small amount).  i have no testing to indicate that the scheme works, but there is no harm in doing it.

 

just for the record, not intended to start an argument, and not to diminish anyone's efforts, the statement that any normally aspirated version makes "a bunch more power" than the stage 3 kit is at least misleading.  the stage 3 kit makes more torque, over a wider band, than any normally aspirated version of the 968 engine (torque is where real power is - most people don't care about peak horsepower in a street car, other than for bragging rights).  the stage 3 kit could easily make far more horsepower than what is shipped too.  i merely limited things, and told the engine to sign off after 6k rpm, to make things safe and to keep them together, because most guys won't rebuild their engine first, which would also be required to make a high horsepower normally aspirated engine.  besides, the stock valves begin to float at just over 6300rpm (which is why the redline is where it is).  this causes mixture issues.  you don't really notice it in a normally aspirated car, but you would in a forced induction car.  the crank twists too, which becomes a problem when you start pushing the envelope.  like any other engine when tweaked, a tweaked out normally aspirated engine won't last all that long.  the stage 3 kit is designed to maintain the lifespan of the engine.  comparing a stage 3 kit on a 100k motor to a brand new fully tweaked race engine is not a fair comparison.  if you want to compare for real, i made 376hp, and then tuned it down to a bit over 340, on a street engine.  the only difference between that and the standard stage 3 kit is injectors and tuning.  getting up to 375 would only take some minor porting, small exhaust changes, and stiffer valve springs.  it would not be at all difficult to do that to any of the stage 3 kits.  it's pointless though, as all of the increase is up over 6k rpm.  most people just aren't interested in anything over 6k.  torque also does not change, so again, pointless on a street car.

 

i had considered making the big power "stage 4" version available to the masses, and i still might.  i did not want to be responsible for what somebody did after they installed the big power version.  i had already had people take the stage 1 version out on the track, which was firmly recommended against.  releasing the "stage 4" version would require proof of having rebuilt the engine though, and a waiver of responsibility.  again, we can talk about that, but on a different thread, or directly.

 
if you want big torque on a normally aspirated engine, you need to go stroker.  there is a guy out on the west coast that is the leading expert on the 968 engine, and how to get big power out of it.  he makes his own crankshafts for that.  he built my engine.  he's been doing it for as long as the engine has been out there.  he doesn't advertise, and you will be waiting for a very long time, but he is the best.  last i heard, there was a 6 month wait just to get into see him.  i won't "advertise" him here, but if anybody wants to go that route, they can contact me.

 

back to the original question though.  look at the flow rate sheet.  they should all be matched, but a few sets had a small difference between them.  in that case, install the lowest rate injector to the rear, and the highest to the front.

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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#8

Just as I thought, just a numbering system.
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#9

yes, normally aspirated engines make their big hp numbers at the top.  most engines do.  that's how the math works.  5252.  torque is the real measure of power though, and what makes a car fast, not horsepower.  also, as i said, most people do not care about what is up at the top.  they want the middle.  3k - 5k.  that's where they drive.  that's where the torque is.  i'd love to see a normally aspirated engine making 300 plus lb/ft.  comparisons should be done in terms of torque bands, not of upper end horsepower numbers, but, to keep the magazine readers happy, i have posted those too, showing 375hp at peak (about 340 at the wheels), on 91 octane fuel.  it would be extremely easy for any of the stage 3 kits to make 340 peak (310 at the wheels), again on 91 octane fuel.  those numbers would go up if i could use 93 or better.  i just can't guarantee how long those motors would hold together, since most of them are untouched and 100k or so, which is why i never offered it.  i think it is a bridge too far.  that's also why i never compare a race engine to a street engine.  i know plenty of turbocharged 968 race engines making 600+.  it's not a fair comparison, and it's a pointless exercise in most people's worlds.  they would never consider putting a race engine in their street car, for good reason.  they don't want to be stuck having to trailer their car to the track, nor do they want to lose out on driving their car on the street.  slippery slope once you go there.  been there done that.  a more fair comparison would be to compare how much power you get for a given expenditure.  that's how most people look at these kinds of things, and why the kits sold so well.

 

regardless, it will be interesting to see the charts and compare what does what.

 

just to be sure that any comparisons are as fair as possible, as we have definitely seen way too many done wrong, they should be measured at the wheels, not calculated or corrected forward, and should be done on an eddy current dyno (not a standard dynojet), with a baseline of a stock car on the same dyno for reference.  fuel should be the same for all tests.

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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#10

I thought you were sticking to injector question!
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#11

lol - i was responding to the part of your post that you later edited out, about your upcoming posting of charts of your race engine.  no worries.  the above still works as clarification of a number of things, regardless of how confusing it may be now that the previous post was essentially deleted.

 

we now return everyone to their regularly scheduled programming

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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#12

I did edit out any comments about dyno charts as it wasn't applicable to original post. I decided to make a new post about dyno numbers at a later date.
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#13

fair enough

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94 Midnight Metallic Blue Cab Porsche 968 w/deviating cashmere/black interior and WAY too many mods to list - thanks to eric for creating www.968forums.com



"It isn't nearly as expensive to do it right as it is to do it wrong."
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#14

Thank you guys

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