[flash]

when in doubt round down, not up in the rear, but it's ok to round up in the front

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[RS Barn]

So I wrote a pretty long reply last nite and when I hit a key it all went away...

Short note.

Pete likes:

Bilsteins-Digressive valving is perfect for combo cars and more

Dual Springs-Tenders not helpers front, helpers rear

Torsion bars for DE/Street car

MO30 bars with mostly Delrin mounts

A touch of Body Roll/Weight transfer

As many Monoballs as you can afford

Pete Dislikes:

Tarret

Weltmeister

Springs over 600Ft/LBs anywhere

No Body Roll/Weight Transfer

Rubber Bushings



My base setup can be run on street/DE and almost Pro SCCA without setting shock pressures,swaybars,etc

Only Tire pressure adjustment at track

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[Cloud9...68]

Pete,



Thanks for the input. I spoke to Max today about ordering a set of rods, the Lindsey Racing oil pan baffle, and a windage tray (just a warm-up to a very large order I'm about to place with you guys). My goal is to make my car much more track-worthy than it is today, but still keep it streetable enough to at least drive to and from the track.



Excuse my ignorance, but what is digressive valving, and why do you like it?



Also, what's the difference between a tender spring and a helper spring? Thanks.

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[RS Barn]

Digressive valving is used to increase Turn In without overly stiff Damping characteristics.

The Compression or Bump damping is quite firm at beginning of stroke and then softens and has a progressive increase again.

This essentially gives you the benifit of 2 way Bump style Damping without the expense or ability to mess up.

Tender springs are actually a short spring with a measurable spring rate-say 275 In/Lbs. Helper springs are wire thin and don't have any spring rate. They are used to hold up primary springs.

Pete

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[steve g]

I was considering Bilsteins but decided to go for the Moton Clubsports, don't ask why, I am already sleeping in the garage...



I am in agreement with Pete's list in that I am looking to replace all the rubber pickup points with monoballs/spherical bearings, etc.



My car is DE dedicated but will be PCA stock class Club Race in the near future and for that reason I need to keep torsion bars due to class rules.



I'm down to the wire on making a decision on the torsion bar question

OPTION #1 replace the stock size torsion bars with 10mm torsion bars, thus effectively minimizing their effect

OPTION #2 keep the stock torsion bar and going with different spring rates to account for the existing torsion bar



Question #1 - given 2 cars, one with springs and another with springs and torsion bars, can we select springs for either scenario that would enable the car to handle in a similar fashion ?



Question #2 - is the 'dynamic response' of a spring only different compared to the 'dynamic response' of a combination torsion bar and spring



What would your recommendations be for front and rear springs rates ?

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[RS Barn]

Cars set up with T bars and correct spring rates are very forgiving. When you move to Coil Over only, Spring rate seems so much more important and finicky due to track conditions and temps. Motons are excellent dampers and with 2 way adjustments can be dialed in quickly to changing conditions if the driver has the skill and knowledge to make correct changes.

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[flash]

boy is that an understatement - it took me quite a while to finally nail down the rear, and i'm still not sure i wouldn't have been better off with just running stiffer torsion bars instead of going coilover

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[Cloud9...68]

"Dual Springs-Tenders not helpers front, helpers rear"



"Tender springs are actually a short spring with a measurable spring rate-say 275 In/Lbs. Helper springs are wire thin and don't have any spring rate. They are used to hold up primary springs."



Pete,



So are you saying to go with essentially no extra springs in the back, relying solely on the torsion bars plus helper springs, which you point out have essential no spring rate? That seems like a very soft setting for the back for a track car. Something tells me I'm not understanding your recommendation correctly...

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[Cloud9...68]

[quote name='Dubai944' timestamp='1298051623' post='105219']

I don't know what other do when fitting the spring plate bushings but I found a great way of removing the bonded rubber was to use a stiff nylon brush wheel fitting on the end of a drill. [/quote]



Would a brass wire brush wheel (softest one available at Lowes) risk damaging the spring plates? I bought it from memory from Dubai944's recommendation, but I now see he recommends using a stiff nylon brush wheel. Would soft brass be too aggressive? Thanks.

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[flash]

you really can't hurt the plates - they are steel

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[Cloud9...68]

OK, thanks. I'm just a little over-protective of these surfaces which will be in contact with my new bushings. On the plus side, they should be nice and smoothe and shiny when I'm done. OK, must prepare to do battle with the rubber bushings that currently have a death grip on the spring plates... Propane torch and wire brush at the ready...

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[benspeeder]

I will give some props to Pete on how he setup my car. After messing with my settings all the time on other race cars without the engineering skills to match the equipment I usually messed up my suspension.



Going with Pete's recommendations on the Bilsteins, camber plates/settings and the like I never mess with things at the track unless its raining and the car is always fast, predictable and lets me focus more on improving the driving skills - that's always where the most gains are anyway.



I laugh at the guys messing like crazy on their triple adjustable remote resevoir shocks that cost three time the money and more often are set way too stiff. (but the guys with the skillz to use 'em - they get their moneys worth)

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[pmcrespo]

+1 on the Bilsteins. Great setup.





I am now running the Motons and they do rock. But as Ben said, for the money, they better! Bang for the buck, definitely Bilsteins, but money no object, definitely Motons. They really are awesome....

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[Cloud9...68]

Rubber busings are off the spring plates; delrin bushings goes on tomorrow, then I'll paint them with a good corrosion-resistant paint (I'll mask off the new bushings, of course). I think I'll add grease fittings to the spring plate covers.



It really wasn't that bad of a job. I used a torch to burn the rubber (please don't sick the EPA on me...), which made it pretty easy to remove 90% of it. Then I used a soft brass wheel wire brush, at low rpm on my drill, to remove the rest. A messy job for sure, but not too difficult. The spring plates are all shiny, and look brand new. Getting them out wasn't that tough, either.



As far as shocks, I hope I made the right decision, but I figured that if I went with Bilsteins or Leda's, which I'm sure are both outstanding shocks, I'd probably end up upgrading them down the road, so I swallowed real hard, torpedoed the bank account, and went with the Moton Club Sports. Overkill for my current driving level for sure, but I really want a car I can grow into, as I've already "outgrown" its current capability with my meager experience/skill level.

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[flash]

i've driven 2 cars now with the bilsteins, and i have to say i am not at all impressed, and in fact would never put those on any car i had - they are harsh on the street and not at all what i would think of as civilized - they danced all over the place on any bump int he road - they may hold up well on the track in a lightly sprung car, but i think there are better choices out there

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[Cloud9...68]

Flash,



It's too late now, as I'm already committed, but do you share the seemingly universal high regard for Moton Clubsports?

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[tamathumper]

+1 on Bilsteins being spastic.

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[Cloud9...68]

Hmmm... Interesting. So we have top-flight 968 experts disagreeing on something as fundamental as shock selection. I know this kind of thing depends on the application, but this disagreement underscores how much art is mixed in with the science with this stuff.

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[flash]

motons - i have no experience with those - sorry



as for my views on the bilsteins, it is indeed very subjective - i like shocks to do what they are supposed to do, which is dampen the springs - the springs hold up the car, and the shocks take out the bumps (hence the name "shock absorber") - the bilsteins are fine at absorbing high rate impacts, but do not feel good to me on normal around town bumps and ruts and stuff - they remind me a lot of the koni yellows in that regard - they make the car jump around - i have now felt them on both a hardtop and a cab, and the result was the same - the helpers were small too, so it isn't the spring rate



suspension choice and feel is highly subjective - i like firm but smooth on a street car - this is why the only thing i have found so far that i like is hydraulic and not gas



that being said, after the fun run this last weekend, i may need to firm up my springs a little bit

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