[ds968]

I searched and looked at the infamous " gummy starter syndrome " and various other starting problems threads but did not find something which might lead me to a possible culprit for this symptom : after sitting overnight in outside temps which are on the cool side ( below 60 F ) at the first start the engine cranks very sowly, almost as if the battery is weak ..but the battery is new ( less than a couple of months old and I also just tested it with a volt/ amp meter - it has plenty of power ) . This slow cranking happens ONLY when it's cool/ cold outside and the car sat for at least 10 hours in those temps . And only on the first start attempt - if I shut it off and try again a few seconds later, it starts right off . Even when it sits for the same 10 hours but during the day in warm temps, no problem at all - it cranks very fast and engages immediately at the first turn of the key . So the only variable causing an issue with cranking is the outside temperature . Theories ?

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[Rap]

I have the same problem with my truck. I now keep it in the garage. Temps are much different though.

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[MCL968]

Grounds? I would guess that, or possibly the solenoid contacts.

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[ds968]

Lol, after writing about " cool / cold " temps I realized you guys back east, or mid-west or for that matter just about everywhere else except Hawaii must be shaking your head at 60 degrees being categorized as chilly .


The car will be up on a hoist Thusrday so we'll get a good look at the starter and solenoid cables and wires contracts , but if it was a grounding or contact issue, wouldn't it be problematic in warmer ambient temps as well ?

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[az968]

Well, 60 isn't cold enough to cause contraction of parts, except if your last name is Constanza. Oil/grease viscosity could cause cold cranking with faulty grounds and contacts. Check battery and starter connections first.

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[ds968]

Will do.


Haha, poor George ...too funny .

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[MCL968]

Good reference!

 

The contacts I was mentioning are inside the solenoid, which would explain why the first try would crank slow, and after the load caused the contacts to heat up a bit, they would expand making the full current go to the starter.

 

Just a guess, but an educated one.

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[ds968]

Ah, THOSE contacts ... I remember replacing a starter many years ago but don't remember if the solenoid can be separated from the main unit , or it's welded on .. not a that rebuilt starter is all that expensive so easy to just replace the whole thing, but if the solenoid can be removed by itself and cleaned up or even replaced individually, it's a " why not give that a try first ? " question ..


Also, another dumb question but would holding the key for just a brief moment longer at the second setting position before turning it make any difference to this contacts ? I'll try that when I start the car this morning just to see , but thought I'd ask nonetheless ..

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[ds968]

Might have identified a culprit : In another thread I mentioned there is a metallic ringing / pinging on cold starts for the first couple of minutes until the car warms up .. I used a stethoscope and found the ringing emanates directly from the alternator . So either bearings or the voltage regulator going bad . It's likely the alternator is not sending enough amps to the battery and on cold starts it's sluggish . Instead of relying on the instrument panel which shows the battery to be operating at optimum levels, I used an external voltmeter this morning and measured the power : it's 12.03 V. before starting , and dropping to 8.5-9.0 V while cranking ( albeit for only a fraction of a second before it returns to 11.7 - 12. 1 ) .


So going for the cheapest fix first ( replacement of the voltmeter ) and if that does not make a difference , the PITA job of changing the alternator ( with a SC in the way ) is not something my wallet is looking forward to ..

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[flash]

not the voltmeter.  the voltage regulator.

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[ds968]

lol, right ..I had that stated correctly a few lines above, so not sure what prompted me to write  " voltmeter " , other than the fact that one is clearly messed up also ;  On starts it's always at or a hair above the  " 13.5-ish "  mark,  and while driving with everything from AC, to the radio , lights , etc..  on ( in case that makes any difference )  it's  steadily between the "12.5" and "13" imaginary marks.    Obviously not an accurate gauge  !          

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[MCL968]

The speed that the engine cranks before it starts would not generate any additional power. I would argue that the noise may be a problem, but not be causing the problem you are having with starting.

 

I would still suspect the solenoid contact points. The alternator is a pain to replace compared to the starter, especially with the SC. Ignore the alternator noise for the moment and concentrate on the slow cranking.

 

I don't recall if the solenoid cap is removable, but I suspect that it is. On GM solenoids you can rotate the bolt that attaches to the battery cable 180 degrees to move the worn side away from the contact and put the unused side where the contact plate hits when the solenoid engages. Porsche may have used the same idea to get more life out of the starter, just like they did with the replaceable regulator on the alternator.

 

The trigger wire for the solenoid could also be a problem. Mine was shot, and undersized in my opinion. I replaced the one that goes to the alternator and the one that goes to the solenoid at the same time, since they both come out of the same connector on the firewall by the brake master cylinder.

 

Based on the data you have offered, my money is still on the solenoid contacts.

 

M-

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[flash]

we have to remember the battery drain.  that is likely what is responsible for the slow cranking.   this is a new battery.  there is no reason it should not be holding a full charge.  12v is way too low.  it should be no less than 12.6v, and really should be up around 13v.

 

the solenoid would not explain the low voltage.  a bad alternator bearing could, as it could cause the alternator to output low amperage.  a bad regulator would, and these are known to wear out.

 

i do not think the solenoid is in any way involved.  if it is the starter, it is likely GSS that is responsible for the issue.

 

i would change the regulator first.  then i would pull the starter and deal with GSS

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[Bulti]

lol, right ..I had that stated correctly a few lines above, so not sure what prompted me to write  " voltmeter " , other than the fact that one is clearly messed up also ;  On starts it's always at or a hair above the  " 13.5-ish "  mark,  and while driving with everything from AC, to the radio , lights , etc..  on ( in case that makes any difference )  it's  steadily between the "12.5" and "13" imaginary marks.    Obviously not an accurate gauge  !

I think this is normal behaviour. At first, after a start and when/or the battery has drained a bit, it's getting the maximum voltage of about 13,5V. When the battery is full the charge will become less.

Stuff that uses a lot of current will make the voltmeter drop, even when driving. Maybe the alternator can only provide for so much?


Please correct if I'm wrong. I fell asleep in electrical class ;-)

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[flash]

yeah - those readings are irrelevant though.  the issue to start with is the low storage voltage.  make sure you have at least 12.6v and then go from there

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[ds968]

Sheesh, the prices have gone up by A LOT in the last couple of years..  just the regulator ( Bosch, still the OE, and from the dealer )  is now $ 242  !    Sunset will sell it for $ 176, but then you add shipping, and it still hovers around $ 200 ..  Don't even ask what a rebuilt alternator costs.    So it may still make sense to change the regulator first but it'd be a bi*ch to do that and then discover it's really a starter problem, a far cheaper alternative. But my mechanic is also betting on the regulator or alternator causing the slow crank as opposed to starter solenoid contacts or gummy syndrome , particularly in light of the fact that what is a brand new battery ( and one of the best out there - Interstate - )  has only 12.03 V  at start .   Going to the car now to see what the voltage reads after driving it most of the day ..         

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[flash]

poke around on the regulator.  you'll likely find it cheaper elsewhere

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[ds968]

I did, but mostly unreliable crap made in China going for  about $ 75 or so, and takes ages to get here.   

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[flash]

yeah-  you have a charging system problem.


http://www.paragon-products.com/Porsche-...142.00.htm

 

http://www.paragon-products.com/Alternat...011.ax.htm

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[ds968]

Holy crap !   Yeah my credit card charging problem.  Thanks for that ..    I guess dealers don't really care about  that silly " competitive pricing "  thing...

 

and the voltage reads   :    12.05  after driving the car approx 45 min in the morning and another 15 min at lunch .   

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