[flash]

should be about the same as with the PU unit - profile is nearly identical



better underbody flow though

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[flash]

ok - i am finally off to the bender on tuesday - i've been holding back on this project, so as to take advantage of his time when it was best for the project



so, it's time to revive this thread and see what REAL interest there is in these bars - i will likely only do this once - i just can't imagine too many people stepping up for these, or really needing them, so the odds of a second run are very minimal - but, i can do one run and try to keep costs down



they are really for serious drivers only, and require serious spring upgrades to be able to use them (see the above specs) - these WILL NOT work on a stock suspension, nor on minor spring upgrades like H&Rs



cost is likely going to be about double that of the M030 bars - more on that after my meeting - they can be sold separately, in the event that you already have a rear cup bar, or a huge weltmeister, or something like that, but they should not be installed separately (as in using with stock or M030)



if you are SERIOUS about these, let me know - i'll be doing the run in about 2 weeks

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[quick968]

[quote name='flash' post='55044' date='Jun 19 2008, 09:50 AM']ok - i am finally off to the bender on tuesday - i've been holding back on this project, so as to take advantage of his time when it was best for the project



so, it's time to revive this thread and see what REAL interest there is in these bars - i will likely only do this once - i just can't imagine too many people stepping up for these, or really needing them, so the odds of a second run are very minimal - but, i can do one run and try to keep costs down



they are really for serious drivers only, and require serious spring upgrades to be able to use them (see the above specs) - these WILL NOT work on a stock suspension, nor on minor spring upgrades like H&Rs



cost is likely going to be about double that of the M030 bars - more on that after my meeting - they can be sold separately, in the event that you already have a rear cup bar, or a huge weltmeister, or something like that, but they should not be installed separately (as in using with stock or M030)



if you are SERIOUS about these, let me know - i'll be doing the run in about 2 weeks[/quote]



Just stumbled onto the thread. But you can put me down for a set if you're still a go. I'll PM you as well.

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[flash]

no problem - what springs are you running? - we won't want these bars to be installed on springs that are too soft - it's dangerous

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[quick968]

Need to talk to Jason @ Paragon, we'll be setting this up biased towards track work. I'll use his dbl-adj Koni struts up front, prolly between 250-400lb Hypercoils, Koni 8012's in the rear with 450-600lb Hypercoils, have to play with the spring rates a bit of course to make it work well. This is my 4th 968 to set up and hopefully the last. The first was a white 95 that is still doing stellar track duty in Texas AFAIK, and the second was the Riviera Blue Club Sport I brought over then built from scratch and then stupidly sold to Rich Tillotson. 3rd was a beautiful M030 couple that was simply too nice to abuse. Both the others were set up identically, but neither cornered as flatly as I would have liked on the track. Rich didn't do much other than tweak spring rates and he still managed to podium the Club Sport so maybe I'm too picky. Is that enough info, or too much.



Rgds

Mike

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[flash]

yeah - those will work - 275 wheel rate per corner is about the minimum

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[333pg333]

Just bumping this thread to see if there was any net result or progress? I am having some turn in understeer issues at the moment and feel that I need a front sway bar with adjustment available. Still, I'm interested to hear about these. Did they get made up? What were the user's impressions? I know putting on stiffer sways should only exacerbate the understeer, but that's not the only component that can be altered.

thanks

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[flash]

haven't made any up, other than mine - i love them - just finishing a couple of other projects first - the good news is that i think it should be easier now to get them made

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[333pg333]

No thoughts of having any adj available? I'm going up to 285s on the front so I want some ability to soften or harden my sways I'm thinking.

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[flash]

lol - had thoughts sure - no practical way of doing it though, and meet my other design criteria

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[333pg333]

I know that Karl is working on some blade style ones but my concern with infinite adj would be data logging?

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[flash]

yeah - there is such a thing as too much of a good thing - i don't know ANY driver consistent enough to do data logging on swaybar settings - too esoteric

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[333pg333]

I have to admit that the whole tuning thing (suspension wise) is a bit daunting. Height, rebound, bump, camber, toe, caster, psi, sways, tyre temps, compounds, brands, and sizes. Having to log this at the track when you come in from a flying hot lap and you're by yourself. No easy feat. Then what to do with all that info? Also having the ability to change some of those variables when you don't have anyone in the pits with you on midweek practice days. All pretty tricky.

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[xrad]

Flash: Nice work! Saw your pics. Are your braided brake lines clear covered? If you use them for more than a few years, some sources recommend replacement due to high failure rate from dirt entering stainless braid.

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[firefish]

[quote name='xrad' post='65702' date='Jan 17 2009, 12:34 AM']Flash: Nice work! Saw your pics. Are your braided brake lines clear covered? If you use them for more than a few years, some sources recommend replacement due to high failure rate from dirt entering stainless braid.[/quote]



I'd be interrested in a set of sways, although I haven't the faintest about how my car is set up at the moment. It has coilovers from Leda and the seller told me that spring rates are approx 4 times that what a stock Cayman has (at least I think that was what he said?!?).



What else should be adressed if going this route, besides a tower brace? Poly bushings? I'm not to keen on going for Delrins since this car will see mostly street and only occasionally track.





/ff

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[flash]

xrad - thanks - no, they aren't currently covered - my car never sees dirt, and i am under there after every drive cleaning things up - but while i have never heard of anybody having this issue on anything but an off-road car, yes, contaminants can get in there if you aren't careful - a good washing periodically takes care of that though



firefish - i am also not a fan of delrin on this car - i had used it for decades, but on this car it just doesn't seem to work that well anywhere but the swaybars, and even then you have to do some things to make them work well - there is a thread here showing a mod for that



poly is tricky stuff - they are noisy unless you get ones with grease fittings and grooves



i currently have delrin on the front, and poly on the rear



as for what else to do to make these work, spring rates and controlling them are key - you need pretty stiff springs to take advantage of these - at least 300 up front and a wheel rate of 300 in the rear - anything less with these bars, and the car just slides around - i have no idea what the cayman has, so i'd check that out on your setup - also, you need tires big enough to provide the grip to prevent the car from feeling like it's on marbles - the stock sizes won't do it



the lower brace will be essential to this all working too - the camber change that happens without it will most certainly make things a mess



the good news is that once it's all done, you can dramatically reduce the negative camber in your setup - i am very happy with the way it feels



it's all about a complete package with balance though, so it gets pricey to get there, and most people will never see the benefits in their driving

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[firefish]

I'm currently running stock Cup's with Toyo R888's. To weak for these sways?

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[flash]

not sure what a "cup" is (whether it is the C2 Turbo or 993 Cup), but there is a good chance they are too narrow to take advantage, at least up front - the new loads that would be presented to the front tires would likely heat them up very fast - the car will handle better and hold a higher g-load, but the point at which it snaps loose would be a lot more abrupt - that tends to make a car a bit tough to handle - to be honest though, i haven't tried these bars with stock sized tires and wheels yet, so i'm only taking an educated guess here

this one is a slippery slope - bigger sways requires the big springs and more tire - that then means a beefier set of bushings, spindles and hubs to handle the loads - then you need to add more brakes because you are now going faster..........and so on and so on

it's all about balance too, so things need to happen in packages - i'd get the chassis sorted before going to larger bars

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[firefish]

<!--quoteo(post=66813:date=Feb 10 2009, 07:08 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Feb 10 2009, 07:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->not sure what a "cup" is (whether it is the C2 Turbo or 993 Cup), but there is a good chance they are too narrow to take advantage, at least up front - the new loads that would be presented to the front tires would likely heat them up very fast - the car will handle better and hold a higher g-load, but the point at which it snaps loose would be a lot more abrupt - that tends to make a car a bit tough to handle - to be honest though, i haven't tried these bars with stock sized tires and wheels yet, so i'm only taking an educated guess here

this one is a slippery slope - bigger sways requires the big springs and more tire - that then means a beefier set of bushings, spindles and hubs to handle the loads - then you need to add more brakes because you are now going faster..........and so on and so on

it's all about balance too, so things need to happen in packages - i'd get the chassis sorted before going to larger bars<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I have a CS so it would be what came stock on that one. 255 in the back and 225 up front. Stock bushings but Leda coilovers. Will fit the nice rsbarn braces (both) and shoot for poly bushings. It's a non M030 (didn't the M030 cars have beefier hubs?) so maybe I should go for the M030 sways instead (I have pm'd pete about the ones he has unless they're already dibbed). I don't want any hubs splitting open or spindles cracking.

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[flash]

yeah - sounds right - i know plenty of guys spring their cars stiff, and run the M030 bars, when really they should do it in conjunction with bigger bars, but with the wheel and tire sizes limiting grip, an over-stiff suspension just makes for a hard car to drive smoothly - racing rules, parts availability, and unresolved lower chassis flex have been the determining factors though, not proper setup - reasons 2 and 3 have been essentially resolved, but reason 1 may still be there - i'd check into that one before proceeding

this is one where you are going to be spring rate limited too - with the car at stock weight, the M030 bars area really only good up to about 300lbs wheel rate max - after that, they are really just too soft - the problem then is that you need bigger tires, which means bigger wheels, which mean bigger spindles and hubs.................

you can help the bars by running the delrin bushings on them,and eliminating flex from those bushings, thereby maximizing their rate - there is thread for a mod shown here that will keep them quiet - i would do that at least on the front

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