[flash]

well, on the rigidity thing, i have plans on that one, so not worried - film at 11 when i finish the parts - the first car to get them will be mine



hmmm - i am all too often sitting in a parking lot with the hood up at a show - gotta look clean there too - personal thing for sure, but defintely gonna at least change that



yes fiberglass takes a LOT of work to get right - done it, but many many hours involved - the full tilt would likely not develop any cracks, as it would not be connected to the car like the sheet metal is - it would get broken if not paying attention though - been there, done that - arrrrrgh



no worries - just bouncing around ideas in my head - looking to the next project car already

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[midospike]

Hey... Flash we think alike. I was wondering the the same thing. Swap some parts and update the 944.... 968/944 v8. With my rx7 i had a bitch of a time with the steering rack and the x member. My oil pan was rubbing on the steering rack and made a small hole in the pan. Replaced the pan and put spacers in the mounts then the hood would not line up. I If it wasn't one thing it was another. I thought I try a rx7 first(cheaper parts and close style to the 944). Let me understand one thing.... What would be the best engine trans set up to put in my 944/968/convert? best bang for the buck? Keep my 6 speed or like you said 944 turbo in a convert body? I don't want to over spend trying different ways like I did with the 911 and rx7. thanks

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[flash]

well, i'm not really ready to give advice on that one - i am really only at the point of bouncing ideas around - i am still looking into different gears, rings, and pinions, and really want to drive one of these cars before i commit to doing it - i have pretty specific thoughts on what i want in the end, and i'm not going to really know how i feel about this conversion until i see and drive one

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[Ryan]

Just saw in the newspaper that a company in Ohio was selling a installed kit of a LS2 in a Solstice for $19k. Pricey, but what a car for $40k. It included brakes and suff as well. Modern day AC Cobra.

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[wjk_glynn]

[quote name='Ryan' date='Jan 9 2006, 08:29 AM']Just saw in the newspaper that a company in Ohio was selling a installed kit of a LS2 in a Solstice for $19k. Pricey, but what a car for $40k. It included brakes and suff as well. Modern day AC Cobra.

[right][post="14394"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



This one ?



http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...6/FREE/51214007



Karl.

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[Anchorman]

And, with all of that, it's just getting into the Cayman price range. Hmmm...

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[bob blackwell]

Thanks for the link Karl, that sure sounds like and exciting Pontiac! Bob Blackwell.

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[tloof]

968LS1,



Since the Corvette LS1 engine has a wider but much shallower oil pan (it has a road race type pan with internal baffles) than the F-body oil pan, did you attempt to use it rather than modifying the F-car oil pan? I think it will clear both the rack & X-member while still allowing the intake to clear the hood of the 968 (but who knows for sure without trying it?)



I do question your claim that the weight of the LS1 is the same as the 968 engine. When I was messing with doing a V8 conversion in my S10 pickup I looked at using the LS1 in it. Several of the members on the S10 websites were saying the same as you mentioned that the LS1 weighed 380 lbs; however, when I weighed it for myself I came up with 450 lbs minus the accessories. With accessories it weighed close to 485-490 lbs. Now I don't know for sure what the 968 engine weighs, but I'm sure it is less than 350 lbs with accessories! My guess is that the LS1 swap will add at least 120-130 lbs more to the front end when installed in the 968, so that has to affect the handling of it with such a swap!!! Also, the tremendous torque of the LS1 would be extremely tough on the 968's transaxle in my opinion. I just can't believe that it will stand up to the abuse for very long!!



Did you have to do any firewall massaging to get the LS1 to fit? Also, what did you use for exhaust manifolds (or headers) to get it to fit in the 968 chassis? I assume that by using the Corvette bellhousing & clutch that all that has to be done to work with the 968 transaxle is to weld up a custom driveshaft & torque tube?



Do you have drawings of the engine mounts so that others can reproduce a set of mounts for themselves?



Please elaborate on ALL of the modifications that were required to fit the LS1 into the 968 (such as the brake power booster having to be eliminated in order to gain clearance to the LS1's valve cover, etc.).

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[rustech]

Renegade Hybrids

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[tloof]

Ok, I looked at the Renegade site, but it appears that the X-member is still being lowered to get the LS1 to fit in versus the engine mounts that 968LS1 made to avoid lowering it (unless Renegade has changed to his design?). Nice setup that Renegade sells, but damn is it all expensive...about $6000 for the full kit with options. Add to that the $4000 or so that an LS1/LS2 will cost and this is an extremely expensive conversion doing it yourself (tack on another $5000 or so to have it done by a shop and in the end the conversion cost is as expensive as buying an entire used 968 that is in good shape can be bought). Hell, buying a used Corvette will be cheaper in the end and doesn't require any labor whatsoever!! Based on the costs of V8 conversion parts from Stealth (formally JagsThatRun) for converting XJ Jaguars, S10's, 240Z's, etc indicates to me that Renegade is WAY overpriced for what you get (about double if not more). I suspect that alot of the items included in Renegade's kit could be custom made for about a third of that cost for anyone that is handy at making things. An example is the cooling system setup they have for $900...I'm sure that a cheap $160 Modine Corvette radiator with used Ford Taurus 2 speed electric fan (it pulls over twice the air flow that any aftermarket elec fan does and only costs about $40 used) could easily be adapted to fit in the 968 and the total cost is about 25% of the Renegade setup. Many of the other adapter parts such as the C5 Corvette bellhousing/ 968 torque tube adapter should be an easy machine shop custom item for under $200 or so, and the motor mounts should only be about $100 tops!



Of course I realize that Renegade has to recoup their development costs on a very low volume of kits sold, so that is probably why it is so expensive, but in my opinion the cost will also limit the number of potential buyers (in all reality at half the cost they would most likely make more than twice as much money since so many more 944/968 owners would opt to do such a conversion).



Anyway, it looks interesting but is probably best to do the swap yourself along with making alot of the conversion parts yourself in order to keep it reasonably affordable!!!!

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[flash]

frankly, i don't think the kit price is all that bad, IF it comes with headers and pipes, complete cooling system, all necessary electronic interfaces, and such, AND still allows use of all accessories (AC)



i'm not inclined to slag renegade, because, as somebody who has done a number of these kinds of things, i know how expensive it is to make things like shrouds, bellhousings, and such, which are all integral parts of such conversions, but i do agree that this is a lot more expensive than many think, based on what they have read



the machine work though is alot more expensive than the numbers above - heck, i was paying more than that nearly 20 years ago for stuff like this - if you know a machine shop that could make the adaptor for 200, or motor mounts for 100, please get me theri name and number - i have a few things i want done



also, i would NEVER install a used motor, and i can't imagine a new one being less than 7k, if it came with the necessary electronics



this conversion would probably cost nearly 20k if somebody had a shop do it, and 15k or so, if you did it yourself - still, not bad for the power you get



then of course there is the true weight issue, and the inadequate suspension to consider



a mixed bag for sure, however you look at it

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[Anchorman]

I guess I won't regret having had new rod bearings installed in my 968 motor. I was thinking that if I blew the engine, I'd go the LS1 route, but that shouldn't have to happen now. While I was tempted at the possibility in the $5-10k range, $15-20k is never going to be spent (again) on this car - at least not by me.

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[tloof]

Actually Flash you are wrong, the Renegade conversion parts costs are NOT that good. Just go take a look on www.jagsthatrun.com to get a basic look at some really decent and reasonable conversion parts costs to get an idea of what I am talking about. For example, a rear differential mounted reluctor ring speed sensor kit is only $75 from Jagsthatrun vs the $285 that Renegade quotes. An OEM Corvette radiator (the same item that is used with the LS1 in Corvettes) is only $185 and an equal quality Modine aftermarket Corvette radiator is only $130 from Jagsthatrun. Combined with the far superior Ford Taurus electric fan (about $40 used with relay) this setup is only $170 vs the $899 that Renegade quotes (of course there would be some custom brackets required to mount it into the 968, but those are easily made for under $20 in materials). Custom made LS1 engine conversion motor mounts for the S10 are only $85 from Jagsthatrun, which is less than the $100 I mentioned that a 968 set shouldn't exceed in cost! Hell, a custom made oil pan for the SBC for use in a 4x4 S10 is only $205 from Jagsthatrun, though the new ucoming oil pan they are going to make for the LS1 will probably be slightly more (regardless it is WAY cheaper than what Renegade is charging for a modded LS1 oil pan it in it's kit). Just to give you a little idea of Renegade's overpricing just look at the 90 deg rubber intake boot they sell for $29. That same boot can be bought from Jagsthatrun for only $11. Across the board Renegade's pricing is about 3 times higher than it should be in my opinion, and the entire kit with all options shouldn't cost more that $2000 total. When just the conversion parts are $6000 like Renegade has it priced it doesn't become a viable swap option on an older vehicle such as the 968.



As for the use of a used engine, you would be CRAZY not to do so, because the only way to come out ahead for a low conversion cost is to buy a COMPLETE pullout LS1 engine with all accessories, ECU, wiring, etc. If you buy the new $7K crate engine the other additional items that have to be added to it to actually get it to run will easily add another $3K to the cost, whereas a 50K mile pullout LS1 with all accessories is only about $3-4K (at $10K for everything new those 50K miles extra you get will be quite expensive!! Ha)



By the way, when I did a Vortec 5.7 V8 swap into my S10 pickup, it only cost me $2500 total for a 42K mile engine, tranny, & auto 4wd transfer case along with all the conversion parts to swap it in!! (I did do all the work myself since in my opinion an engine conversion is just way too expensive and economically unviable if you hire ANY shop to do it!!!). For another $1500 I added aluminum fast burn GM heads & ZZ4 cam into it so that it makes the same power 350 hp as the Corvette LS1 motor (thus my total conversion costs are about the same as just the LS1 engine by itself costs but it is the same performance wise but WAY more durable since the Vortec 5.7 V8 has an iron block, but it is 75 lbs heavier which while OK in an S10 pickup it would be too heavy in a 968 (so is the LS1 in my opinion).



When engine swaps start exceeding $5000-$6000 total, then they are NOT worth the time and effort to do for all the problems that you will encounter. They have to be kept low in cost since the vehicle will NEVER be worth as much since it is a bastard setup, and because of all the aggravation that you have to go thru to iron out all the bugs in the swap...the increased power gain & lower maintenance costs are the bonus you get for all the trouble to go thru, but at the 20K cost you say is normal for the power it just isn't worth it!!!!!! Maybe you guys in California just have a skewed sense of reality in what things should cost! HeeHee (you need to come down here in Texas and see how we do things for way less!!)

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[bob blackwell]

These recent posts prompted me to call my friend Luke Stribling who put the Chevy V-8 into his 944 a few years ago. Just wanted to see how it is holding up and why he hasn't been out to any driving events this year. Well, the inevitable has happened - first the 944 CV joints gave out, (he had replaced the stock 944 joints with new 944 Turbo joints when he did the conversion) now the torque tube has stripped the splines off and the car is immobile again. I guess the way to go would be to use 928 driveline components for durability. good luck, Bob Blackwell.

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[968LS1]

[quote name='bob blackwell' date='Jan 10 2006, 12:21 PM']Thanks for the link Karl, that sure sounds like and exciting Pontiac! Bob Blackwell.

[right][post="14428"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

Tloof,



The ls1 WILL NOT add front weight. I just completed a track only 944T it was 40 lbs lighter on the front end than it was with the 4 cyl turbo. My 968 weight 2980 with 1/2 tank of gas and the ratio is 51R 49F. If I remove the spare it goes 50/50.

I am not sure where to start with the rest of your comments/questions, I can tell you that to do a proper conversion it cost $$. Over the years I have done many conversions and I have always been able to recoup my investment when I sold them. You are correct that many of the parts from Renegade are more than in other places, but they are showing you what works and they continue to develop the kits as well as new kits. The corvette pan will not fit. The F-body pan can be modified to fit and will save you some $. I used a Canton road race pan and modified it, it is baffled and uses a remote filter set up. I have built 2 street LS1 cars with modified F-body pans and they work great. The radiators that you mention will not fit, but you can use a stock 968/944T radiator for anything but a all out track car with a modified motor. I had a Radiator built to my specs and used the stock fans. The engine mounts are 3 components, a plate to located a stock style chevy mount, the chevy mount and a fabricated stand. I made severa sets of these and modified my oil pan to fit with out using spacers. On a pure street car the spacers are not a real problem to me but if you are going to do some serious track work then it is not advisable in my opinion. The LS1 and the Vortec are totally different and not a good comparison. The LS1 is a great deal out of the wrecking yard and the performance and economy is light years ahead of a Vortec engine. You can build yourself a car without using all the Renegade items if you are in the know about what works and where to get it, but if you are not then Renegade offers a solution. Comparing the custom small block pans and the custom LS1 pans, sure the price for the LS1 pan is higher the sure number if pans sold/manufactured effects the price and the LS1's are still fairly new. I have been running the same 968 6 speed for 7 years, I used it in my old track car for 4 years and have never had to repair the gearbox. I built custom headers and mounts and renegade has some of thew jigs. My 968 engine stands will only work with the canton pan to achieve the proper engine height to fit under the hood. I do use a c5 bellhousing with a modified T/O bearing and custom adapter plate. The clutch is a custom unit I worked with SPEC to build. You cannot ustthe 968 TT, you need a 944TT. I did not have to change the firewall, the brake mods require changing the pedal ratio fron stock to 6.5:1 and raising the master cylinder 19MM. I am currently working on a power brake solution and will have it on my car in the next couple of weeks. You can PM me and I can give you a contact # if you want to discuss more details.

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[flash]

whoa! - i haven't even looked at the kit, so i have no idea what it is like - i'm also not arguing here but:



i never said they were good, i just said i wasn't inclined to slag them, and that if the kit was a good one, and COMPLETE, the price was about right - things like fan shrouds, headers, and such are expensive to get made



i'm familiar with jags that run - they had a shop over the hill from mine, and i worked on a couple of their conversions - they didn't suck, but they weren't very clean or complete either - both owners complained about wht they thought were second rate parts in their kit - the cars i saw looked like some yahoo backyard mechanic stuffed it in there, and i did have to straighten some things out, and tidy some things up - this was 25 years ago, and they may be better at it now, but i wasn't too impressed back then



i don't think you can use the comparison of parts like that - for example, the motor mounts are a very different design - a lot more dampening has to happen with them, than in a standard driveshaft layout - the engine is directly connected to the transaxle, so there is no dampening via the driveshaft and there is no rearward crossmember - the motor mounts have to do it all - those brackets you spoke of must also include labor - time is not free - you have to factor in all that stuff - i'm not suggesting that they don't mark things up, but i hesitate to say they are gouging - i've had to do a fair amount of this work, and i know how time consuming and expensive it is



as for the used motor - NO WAY would i EVER even for a minute think about a used ANYTHING in my car, especially a motor i knew i was going to be driving hard - that's just foolish - i almost rebuilt the motor i have now back at 23k, just because i had no idea for certain what it was like on the inside - it still makes me a bit nervous, and i have every intention of yanking the motor and going through it soon, as i now have 43k on it - i blow up too much new stuff to even think about used stuff - who knows what the previous yahoo did to the motor - after all, they wrecked the car



i'm not one to rubber-band and bubblegum things together - do it once - do it right - don't go back - i plan on running this motor at 6k plus every single time i drive it - no chance in hell of me shortchanging something like that - you might be fine in a pickup truck with a used motor, but not in a car that's going to be driven hard



then there's the whole electronics thing - that is going to be a nightmare - on top of that, getting it certified in whatever state can be costly (and i'm not talking about illegal end-arounds - i know of somebody currently serving 3 years for that)



i do know that their kit does not address some things that i have already discovered as inadequate, with the power i do have, that would be an even larger problem with that much power - i've already commented on that stuff though, and will have to drive a car to see what it's really like



just to be clear, i'm not advocating the LS1 conversion, nor am i expressing any opinion about renegade - i considered it, and i don't like the math when it somes to the chassis - i permanently twisted a 944 hardtop with an engine with a lot less torque, and while seeing the car stuck on 3 wheels was funny, i don't want to do it again - i know how i am going to be driving this car



all that being said, if you can do the job, and do it for the kinds of numbers you are talking about, i think you should go into business - there are a number of people who would probably jump at it



as i said though, a mixed bag, no mattter which way you look at it

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[tloof]

And I bet he swapped a lower powered earlier model SBC into his 944 than what a later model LS1 produces!?! (the LS1 would have broken things even faster!! Ha).



No doubt the transaxle will be next to give out! (or rather the ring & pinion within the transaxle)



Pretty soon he'll be screaming "it's a NIGHTMARE" like Carol Burnette used to always do when everything snowballed into a disaster!! HeeHee



Oh well, such is life when things are modified with greater power (hell, I smoked a ring & pinion within 50K miles when I upgraded an old '85 Nissan 720 pickup with a 240SX engine that was only 50 hp more than the stock 104 hp engine, so you can imagine what you are up against when virtually doubling your power!!!).

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[flash]

yeah! - this recent thing about the 1-2 gearset is making me pretty nervous about big power increases

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[tloof]

By the way Flash, the wiring required for such a conversion is actually very easy to do and using an expensive $450 aftermarket harness is a total waste of money!! All that is required for one of these swaps is to get the engine harness with all mating body harness connectors with it when buying a pullout engine and then simply make your own custom interconnecting harness to fit it into the vehicle you plan to swap the engine into by using the connectors off the original engine harness. Any relays, etc that are required can be wired up to this adapter interconnector harness that you make. It does require carefully looking at the factory wiring diagrams for both the doner engine and the vehicle you are swapping it into in order to determine what engine functions need to be wired up to what in the chassis. Many items such as the AC system, alternator, etc can be left to be controlled by the original vehicles harness rather than using what the GM engine harness has in it, but that can be determined at the time you analyze everything. So far, I have yet to see an aftermarket harness that was worthwhile to use, and feel that the above method works much better and is way lower in cost!



Also, Jagsthatrun has evolved tremendously in the last 18 years, and the conversion parts they sale are of excellent quality (most of all those items are made by other vendors for them). I used all of there conversion parts for my Vortec 5.7 swap and it went extremely easy. Considering all the items that they offer they have excellent prices (go look at their website, you will be surprised at it all). Keep in mind the quality of a conversion is mostly dependant on who does the work, and alot of the sub par conversions you have seen are due to people that just plain do sloppy work (which is about what you get 90% of the time even when you hire a shop to do it!!). I myself have built several kitplanes in the past and am very meticulous as to how I do a conversion, so I tend to do conversions that look like they came from the factory stock. Since you have to build alot of custom things when building a plane, I find that the costs aren't that high when you do it yourself but extremely high when you buy it from elsewhere (things like custom mounting brackets, custom hoses, wiring harnesses, etc.).



Another thing, the motor mounts you mentioned being such a different design in the 968 is no big deal. As a matter of fact it is best to simply use a factory motor mount from either a Corvette (or even the 2.8 V6 Chevy since it is built just as strong as what the Corvette uses), and then make adapter plate mounts that bolt the engine & 968 X member to those mounts. the fact that a torque tube is bolted to the bellhousing instead of a tranny with its mount is irrelevent since the motor mounts still only have to support the engine weight and prevent it from winding up under torque load.



The used motor issue is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. Every low mileage engine I have ever used for a swap (as well as my freinds) have functioned great with absolutely no problems. To me it would be way smarter to use a good low mileage used engine first (with all of the supporting accessories, wiring, etc.), and just see if it works OK. If you have problems later then pull it and rebuild it, but not upfront. Most all of these pullout engines from wrecks will easily go an additional 200K miles in most cases, so why spend alot of money rebuilding them (or buying a new one) for nothing?



Good engine swaps require alot of time to accomplish them. If there is a reasonably low cost kit available to help reduce the time then it may be worth it, but if that kit is so expensive as I am saying the Renegade kit is, then it is hard to justify it when in many cases it is still not done very well (case ion point is that 968LS1 still had to make his own mounts and use a different oil pan to get the LS1 to sit down low enough to clear the hood). When I did my S10 swap all of the companies except Jagsthatrun sold conversion kits that set the engine up too high which ruined the center of gravity, gave hood clearance problems, forced you to use a much smaller clutch fan in it, etc. Alot of these companies just slop out a poorly engineered conversion kit that causes more problems that they are worth, so making your own conversion items is sometimes the only way to go and it saves you a fortune in expenses. The only items in Renegades kit that I can see that are worth using is maybe the Corvette C5 bellhousing /968 torque tube adapter, GM Corvette clutch disc with Porsche spline, and the custom 968/LS1 headers (assuming the headers don't drag too low to the ground like almost EVERY custom header I have ever seen made for most conversions). All the other items are probably best to adapt other cheaper items in their place, or custom make them yourself! (or find who the vendor actually is that makes those parts & buy it for one third of the cost!!!!).



Just my two cents!!!

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[tloof]

Hey 968LS1,



By the way, you are mistaken about the LS1 being far superior to the Vortec 5.7 V8. It is slightly when compared to the Vortec 5.7 in its stock form, but that is easily negated with the use of the GM fastburn aluminum heads on it (they are conventional coolant flow LT4 heads that are $1200 new for use on any conventional SBC and can flow just about the same amount of air as LS1 heads) and replacing the old style injector unit with the newer design that has individual injectors at the end of each port runner hose. Along with a ZZ4 cam change and LT1 exhaust manifolds the Vortec 5.7 is good for 350 hp and achieves the same fuel economy as the LS1. The Vortec 5.7 is also WAY more durable than the LS1 due to its iron block and is slightly more compact for engine swaps (the LS1 durability can be improved by using a 6L iron truck block too, but then it is heavier than the Vortec 5.7 V8). In the end the modified Vortec is an equal match for the LS1 hp-to-hp but far cheaper to purchase and easier to swap into any vehicle since it is narrower and uses a steel oil pan that is easier to modify when needed (and as I mentioned more durable). Of course an LS2 is about 50 hp more than an LS1, but hey a relatively inexpensive 383 kit can always be installed in the Vortec 5.7 block to net the same power (along with a $350 ECM reprogram), and it makes for an easy 450 hp engine then. Don't fall for the myth that the LS1 is that much better than the Vortec 5.7, because it isn't!! (only the weight is where it is a bit of an improvement, but with that weight loss comes lesser durability especially if you ever overheat it since aluminum moves around thermally so much..I know, I've had alot of friends racing LS1's in their Camaro's that have had to ultimately convert to the 6L iron block after warping their all aluminum LS1 block).



Just my additional 2 cents!

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