[Rap]

Listen up you Luddites. The only point with all of these new fangled gadgets is how they are used and the accepted dumbing down of those of us who tolerate this behavior. I understand Flash's position. When I am out and someone is speaking loudly I either say shut up or I don't care to hear your conversation loudly. I get a lot of dirty looks but WGAF. Now when I am out I speak in a very low voice and move away. But because I get calls all the time( 24/7). Sometimes depending on who am am with(Liz) I stay seated. My biz needs instant response and availability. Just nature of my biz doesn't make me special or important! I use my phone 95 percent biz so no mindless chatting in public which makes me understand serial murder. It just gives opportunities to communicate in different ways.

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[ds968]

Well, it's not at all consistent, since BB verbally as well as via email confirmed it's categorically not a misprint and the test was on a 968, but I have to agree with the fact that it is "suspect" insofare as that it is a more limited chart compared to the 944s one they had, so at least it needs to be qualified a bit more.. Maybe that place that performed the test might still have some records they could provide but I imagine they have even less interest than BB in wasting their time with us "little people" of the 968 redheaded stepchild variety..

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[flash]

it's consistent with all of my communications with them, both back then and now. perhaps they were trying to sell you something? i had a bit of a different approach when dealing with them that would tend to elicit a different and more forthcoming response.



as for being qualified more, as i said, it has been tested by others, and not just somebody selling a system. i have seen at least 2 charts on another site that were from owners. essentially the same numbers, and more like what we know that cat-back systems do on this car. the only chart to ever show anything in gains is that one, and the numbers don't add up, and there are enough questions to discount it. i usually disregard manufacturer claims anyway, as the tests are fairly easy to manipulate. heck, you can change the numbers by 5hp just by moving the intake temp sensor.



consider also that it is standard practice to throw out the high and the low and average the rest.

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[ds968]

BB was not trying to sell me anything, this was long after I had bought their caback ! I was talking to them about it this because the whole back pressure bs was being bounced around the forum around that time and I wanted to find out if the resonator version they sold ( mine is the one without ) dyno results were any different. They said no difference, just a slightly quieter note to the sound. And while I don't agree that your discussions with them would elicit in any way or for any reason BB giving a more forthcoming response than they would give me, or to anyone else for that matter, I do agree that results are easy to manipulate and/or at least be framed in a way that serves a given purpose , and also that various manufacturers claims can often exaggerated toward that goal.. However BB was pretty honest in advising me that there would be low to mid range torque loss with the 3" system they were also selling for the 968 ( not sure who bought any of those...maybe heavily modified engines for track ? ), bit nothing material noticeable on the 2.5" one, so I had no reason to think they were making any unsubstantiated claims on the findings they published Oh well, as I said, I put that info up on the thread so others can get the benefit of more than just one assertion on this matter and make up their own minds based on what info is available no matter where it comes from and from which sources, but again, I don't need to prove anything to anyone, the car's performance speaks for itself, so maybe it's just a really uniquely well balanced engine with everything working in synch so well that explains all of it..

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[flash]

i approached them from a more technical standpoint and from that of an associate in the business. that generally tends to get people to disclose things they don't or won't disclose to others. i had exactly the same conversation with them both times, and the results were nearly identical. i don't know why they lied to you. clearly though it was a lie, as all other tests indicate exactly what we have seen on any free-flow system, and both conversations with the same guy you talked to were essentially identical, and said that the chart was not a 968.



i was on the hunt for power. i bought one of those systems. i tested it. it did not make the upper end power that was claimed, and it had a hole in the mids that i did not like. i removed the system and got rid of it. if it had made the power, i would have kept it. it fit nicely (welding issues notwithstanding) and was very light. the tone wasn't bad, albeit a bit "barky" and "droney" for my tastes. for me the decision was based on the numbers. every car i have driven with one of them has been exactly the same too.



i don't sell a system. i don't promote a system. i really don't like any of the systems out there. i tried many. i ended up having to make my own. in the end i spent $11k figuring it out. i have no motivation whatsoever to present anything but the findings as they are, and dispel myths about systems that are falsely advertising claims that cannot be supported. i would love to say that it did what they claimed, but it doesn't. i would love to support and promote a system the proved to be better than any other. there just isn't one. they all have ups and downs. you just get to choose what's most important to you. in the end, it really doesn't matter much to me what you put on your own car.



the only issue i have is with spreading around misinformation that, to anybody who knows about this kind of thing, is just plain hooey and should be dismissed as pure hogwash. to claim anything like 10hp from a cat-back on this car, without huge losses in low-mid torque, ranks up there with the turbonator and the little electric turbo.



but, i am still willing to test on a bet.

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[tamathumper]

Wait, the turbonator is hooey?! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.png" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[ds968]

Ok Bob, if you say so.. I won't waste any more time "defending" BB , if their advertising is indeed false then they're the ones who have to deal with that when challenged, not me.

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[94SilverCab]

I'm liking the title of this category more and more "Exhausted yet?"...YEP!



Dan, don't know what they told you, but I have never seen an independently verified claim that any cat-back system made significant horsepower. I'm suspicious when any one manufacturer makes a claim that no one else in the industry can make, and, in fact, disclaims.



Bob...you're not winning any arguments by continuing to bludgeon a dead topic. If Dan wants to believe that his air freshener gives him 50 HP, that's on him...this has gone beyond educational/informative. I think the masses have enough to make an informed decision.



Sheesh!



Jay (Voice of reason)

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[flash]

lol - dan - nobody asked you to defend them. i just fail to understand the idea of supporting "data" that is clearly in error. as far as i know you are the only one who clings to any idea that it has any basis in reality. i'm not sure why. it's like that thing "if it was in the paper, it must be true". as of last week, even b&b won't stand by those claims. that should be enough to dismiss it as erroneous. we'll see if they come back with something different, but so far they have taken the position that they make no claims of increase whatsoever on the 968.



i can't adequately search RL for the charts, as the site is pretty clumsy like that, but i am pretty sure there are at least 2 independent ones there. they were on the old net site. if anybody else wants to do a search, the real numbers are there plain as day.



when i get the time, if we have not been able to put this to bed once and for all, i will test it AGAIN. we all know i love to waste time and money doing something over again that will have the same result as before.



none of that though means anything though. if you like it, you like it. nobody can fault that, and i'm not going to start.



jay - way too true

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[BeBe]

Boy, this thread makes my head hurt! My car had a BB exhaust on it when I bought it. I didn't have any idea if that was good, bad, or indifferent (or controversial). I only observed that it is stainless and sounds ok. I presumed there must have been some intended performance benefit that led the owner to have it installed. I stumbled on this thread doing a search on "airbox" because I was considering doing the airbox mod and was trying to find the suggested source (or alternate ideas) for the trim pieces for the circumference of the holes.



My question is this: Are the benefits from doing the airbox mod independent of what is happening on the exhaust side of the engine?



(and if you can point me back to the thread I was looking for, that would be great too!)



Thanks,

Greg

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[flash]

lol - imagine being in my shoes



the answer to your question is complicated, and comes down to "sort of"



letting more cold air in allows maximum filling and efficiency of the cylinders, which in turn makes more power. that part is independent of anything else.



however, how much fuel can be added and burned comes into play, as well as scavenging out the exhaust.



that is why you can't just add up the number of the components and expect to get those kinds of gains. what you get in reality is a diminishing amount for each component added. as an example, while a chip might give 15hp, and the airbox almost 11, they won't ad up to 26, but rather about 20.



as for the subwoofer ports for the airbox mod, the source keeps changing. look for a 2"-2.125" port with a rounded (not square) profile entry. any bigger is pointless and more difficult to install.

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[Darth Vadar]

The airbox thread is under the DIY section of these forums...

Here are some photos of the mod done with 2.25 NIBCO pluming connectors...

These screw into the airbox if the holes are properly cut and finished...

That allows some minor adjustment to the ram effect of the Velocity Tubes...        

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[flash]

while i haven't done any measurements on those, the profiles would at least theoretically create quite a bit of turbulence, which could then result in a cavitation effect, limiting flow. maybe not. somebody else is going to have to do that. not likely a huge problem though. i know the square edge ports did mess with things. those were easy to see.



i always intended to add velocity stacks to mine, but ended up with a somewhat "more extreme" version instead - lol



but now we are WAY off topic from the gutted cat

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[robadams56]

This is a very interesting and informative thread if not entertaining. Before I bought my 968 earlier this year I was already contemplating performance mods and having heard several reviewers mention the anemic tone of the factory exhaust, I decided to explore the sounds of the different aftermarket suppliers. Using YouTube as the most convenient source, I listened to various clips and was disappointed to hear that most cat-back systems sounded like a swine relieving gas through a tin cup. Now I like performance as much as the next guy, but having grown up in the golden age of 1 1/2" pipes connected to Cherry Bomb mufflers, I have no desire to live with a rappy exhaust note.



When I was looking at my current 968, I noticed it had an aftermarket system. I asked the seller about the brand and more importantly the sound. He told me it was a B&B and that the sound was deep and certainly not offensive at higher rpms. When I saw the car in person and heard the exhaust note, I fell in love. Exactly what I was looking for and it sounded more cat-like than swine like.



I will say however, there is a bit of mid-range flatness at say 3000 to 3500 rpm. I attributed that to the VarioCam, but the reviews said VarioCam created even torque throughout the power band. I have spent countless hours reading about the development of the 968 and it is clear Porsche focused on fuel/air/exhaust management from tip to stern. It's a phenomenal system, but perhaps to the detriment of enthusiasts, modifications are limited.



So, I am inclined to agree with some of the posts that state the aftermarket free flow exhaust can impact the torque curve in an adverse way within specific rpms. That being said, I am not tracking this car as it is closer to concours than race. Will I convert to stock? Not likely, as I really love the low rumble even though I may be passed by gassy swines. lol

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[Rap]

Did you mean ricey swines? Lol

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[robadams56]

Don't be hatin' the tuners lol

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[bombfactory]

That's right - other than bolting on hideously ugly - and unpainted - body kits, running ultra low profile rubber band tires on stock-sized wheels so there's tons of space in the fender wells, installing super-annoying purple HID headlights that aren't aimed even remotely correct and installing aftermarket mufflers every which way except straight - we aren't really any different!

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