[xrad]

nothing like the speed junkie adrenaline rush....

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[Cloud9...68]

DS- Your posts about your "predatory" exploits with your car always leave me, besides entertained, envious and befuddled. When I got my car, it had 83,000 very well-cared for miles on it, from its records, including a very solid dyno reading from the PO. Yet, either on open stretches of road, or definitly at the track, it's always performed about like you would expect a car with about 240 hp lugging around 3100 pounds to perform- very mediocre at best. I can barely keep up wih a V6 Accord, which, again, based on the cars' specs, isn't surprising. At the track, I can hang with the best of them (at least compared to drivers close to my experience level) in the corners, but on the straights, or even pullng out of the corners, I'm left eating dust. I realize that with 107K miles now on the car, it's getting tired, but this has been the case ever since I've had the car.

You must have one out-on-the-fringes-of-the-distribution engine under your hood, because, based on the 968's power-to-weight ratio, 0-60 or quarter mile times, there's no way any garden-variety 968 could keep up with some of the cars you'e described for more than a few milliseconds. I know mine definitely couldn't. You should feel very blessed to have suh a great example of the breed. Maybe it has do with the fact that these cars were essentially hand-built. Depending on Hans and Werner's mood during the cars' build cycles, maybe some just got a little more TLC than others. This is supported by the enormous variation in things like the durability of the variocam chain pads, and the propensity to fall victim to the pinion bearing malady.

Anyway, I'm confoosed [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif[/img] . Maybe RS Barn will eventually serve as the great equalizer for those of us envious of your car's amazing prowess.

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[ds968]

I can't come up with an answer either but there are at least two other members here that have driven this car and have been befuddled by what seemed to be far more seat of the pants torque then their own 968s, and another one who watched it push on cars with considerably better weight/power ratio, on straigtaways at California Speeway a couple of years back. Well, better power to weight ratios "on paper" anyway, which does not necessarily always translate to a faster car in reality, because of too many other variables that affect that factor.

This car had three POs, I only knew the most recent one and he had no history prior to his buying the car at all..he only owned it for less than a year also. The only possibility one can think of is that one of them blew up the engine and had it rebuilt / bored out to to a 3.1 or 3.2 but that would be highly unlikely IMO, because I'd think if something like that happens you'd want to adverstise it as loud as you could when selling the car to the next person . But who knows what other work it may have had..

A few things though: the car is least 75 lbs lighter than stock..maybe a bit more. The racer X chip, the airbox mod and the BB catback in particular ( which has been the subject of much debate in terms of what it does and what it doesn't .. and I'm not getting into that again [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) in combination seem to work just right and make a pretty big difference especially after about 5000RPM ; I don't usually shift until 7000 when I race the car so that may be one thing. Also, many drivers don't have the nerve to stay floored for too long, and I have no idea if any of the cars I danced with fell in that category.. but again. the very few cars I raced which ostensibly have more HP, or better weight combo, or have better published stats are not either really producing that power at the most useable band, perhaps you have to wind them up past 6k rpm before you get any decent response, or the gearing is too long, or too short, or who knows what, but I can assure you that it's not just my car - any well maintained 968 with very solid compression and with similar mods WILL be fairly evenly matched with a stock C4 cab or a run-of-the mill 5L Mustang, or even an M3 E 46 . Not in 0-60, our cars suck big time in that category, but once you hit 40mph and above, and don't shy away from staying floored, I can guarantee you you can have a very respectable showing . I would not be shocked if a new Accord or a G 37S or any given dozen cars will outrun us to 60, but willing to bet not more than one or two in that whole bunch will keep up past 100mph..if any !

Sheesh, it's not as if I'm posting experiences racing against Ferraris or Vipers for heaven't sake.. I'm not crazy, I only take on cars which I believe I can either reasonably have a chance to stay with, or even know I'd lose ( just as long as it's by a not-too embarassing margin ). Yes, I do that just to get the vicarious thrill of seeing another sports car's capabilities.

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[rhudeboye]

<!--quoteo(post=75409:date=Jul 12 2009, 04:00 PM:name=ds968)-->QUOTE (ds968 @ Jul 12 2009, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->once you hit 40mph and above, and don't shy away from staying floored, I can guarantee you you can have a very respectable showing . I would not be shocked if a new Accord or a G 37S or any given dozen cars will outrun us to 60, but willing to bet not more than one or two in that whole bunch will keep up past 100mph..if any !<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Sometimes I think we're the only 2 (non-pro racers) really running our cars. I've tried to take the mature approach and let ricers, mustangs and really any other speeding car simply pass me and I cant do It. I always end up down shifting and getting on the throttle.

So what was the car you referred to as prey?

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[wmuldowney]

<!--quoteo(post=75406:date=Jul 12 2009, 12:41 PM:name=Cloud9...68)-->QUOTE (Cloud9...68 @ Jul 12 2009, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->DS- Your posts about your "predatory" exploits with your car always leave me, besides entertained, envious and befuddled. When I got my car, it had 83,000 very well-cared for miles on it, from its records, including a very solid dyno reading from the PO. Yet, either on open stretches of road, or definitly at the track, it's always performed about like you would expect a car with about 240 hp lugging around 3100 pounds to perform- very mediocre at best. I can barely keep up wih a V6 Accord, which, again, based on the cars' specs, isn't surprising. At the track, I can hang with the best of them (at least compared to drivers close to my experience level) in the corners, but on the straights, or even pullng out of the corners, I'm left eating dust. I realize that with 107K miles now on the car, it's getting tired, but this has been the case ever since I've had the car.

You must have one out-on-the-fringes-of-the-distribution engine under your hood, because, based on the 968's power-to-weight ratio, 0-60 or quarter mile times, there's no way any garden-variety 968 could keep up with some of the cars you'e described for more than a few milliseconds. I know mine definitely couldn't. You should feel very blessed to have suh a great example of the breed. Maybe it has do with the fact that these cars were essentially hand-built. Depending on Hans and Werner's mood during the cars' build cycles, maybe some just got a little more TLC than others. This is supported by the enormous variation in things like the durability of the variocam chain pads, and the propensity to fall victim to the pinion bearing malady.

Anyway, I'm confoosed [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif[/img] . Maybe RS Barn will eventually serve as the great equalizer for those of us envious of your car's amazing prowess.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Right there with you on this one "Cloud". There seems to be a significant performance gap between his (DS968) 968 and mine. Granted, my car has 85K and as of now just the air-box mod, which made a noticeable improvement. I have had a couple of encounters with some rice burners and have made quick work of most of them. However I am stymied by a Tiptronic so I miss out on a lot of the "seat of the pants" driving fun.

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[flash]

yeah - the tip can be fun in its own right, but it really does limit things - i have yet to stick a chip in mine, so i don't know if it gets rid of the annoying programming limitations or not - that's the one that bugs me most - all the fun is over 6k, and it won't let you play there much

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[ds968]

there clearly are slight performance differences between 968s with mods, without mods, with tip or manual, and even stock vs stock though I would not consider them to be significant enough to put one car in a different class than any other 968.. 5%, maybe 10% max differences, yes.

my car has always performed very well even before the mods and seemed to have a very slight edge at the top end compared to a number of other 968s, though I'm sure there are a bunch of them out there running better and faster than mine does . and now with the rebuilt head it seems even stronger.

i may be wrong but I think some of you guys may be testing your cars against others up to 80, 90, 100 mph and assuming that's the best the car is able to do agianst whatever other make/model you're racing and then puzzled about why i might have any better luck ; START at that mph, and don't let off until 150+ and then come back and tell me your car does not outrun a tipronic C4 cab. these cars are alive only after 100mph

i'll let Bob explain about the gearing and peak power in M3s and how a driver needs to use them because I can't remember all the nuances he explained, which matches these cars a lot closer that most people think or read, but whatever I didf right and that driver may have done just imperfectly ( TWICE ! ) was enough to allow this 968 to do better..

it was an M3 E46 that looked to be just two or three ears old maybe ..

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[flash]

lol - ok - i'll weigh in

the E46M3 has been a great car, but terribly disappointing when it comes to performance - while it is a performer to be sure, if you try to extract that performance, you do so at the expense of any and all peace of mind - the factory exhaust sounds like a rattle box, and when you get up over 7k, it sounds like the car wants to come apart - when i first drove it, and put it near the limits, i quickly assumed something was wrong, and immediately took it to the dealer

they said nothing was wrong - we then went for a ride in 2 others - same thing

what does this have to do with dan? i tend to suspect the driver not pushing the car - most M3 drivers never get to the the area of the power curve where the real power resides - the car sounds very unhappy there - anybody in their right mind would back off - anything above about 6k and its really starts getting noisy and uncomfortable, whereas our cars really start to sing

further, most guys don't use the magic button for the big boost - most of them are SMG cars too, and most drivers won't click down more than one gear - that puts them into the low end of the power curve, and they have to wait for power to come on - the cars are geared so high to meet import mileage standards that unless the guy is in 4th, at 100 it will be a slug

based on how the torque and power curves go in the M3, peak power not occurring until 7900 rpm, this leaves them at maybe 250hp at 6k, in a car that weighs a couple hundred pounds more than ours - if it was a convertible, it would be even worse

so, i'm not slagging dan's car or anything, but i'm not surprised that the M3 got waxed - i've pushed our M3, and it will outrun the 968 at speed, but you really have to push it to do it - 0-60 it's M3 hands down over a stock 968, modded or not - 1/4mile it's pretty close with a modded car (mid 13s at 105) - top speed is limited to 155 on the M3 (unless you remove the limiter) - if you let her rip to 8k, you'll outrun the 968 from 100 to top speed - if you only go to 7k, the 968 will win - what gear you start your run in can be the difference between a race and getting blown away - start in 5th with the 968 in 4th, and you'll never get close to the 968

i suppose we could do a 6th gear 80-120 run on the freeway sometime and see what happens

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[biotechee]

***gasp***

You boys aren't speeding on our nation's roadways are you?!

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]

To be honest, I have never red-lined either of my 968's to the best of my knowledge. I can't even recall going above 6k so I couldn't gauge my 968's "relative" performance with another 968. But in the last couple of times driving the cab, I have hit 5-5.5k and it moved quite well.

I just get too nervous at really high rpms - worried something will snap or disintegrate!! I'm a big sissy... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=75448:date=Jul 13 2009, 08:27 AM:name=biotechee)-->QUOTE (biotechee @ Jul 13 2009, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I just get too nervous at really high rpms - worried something will snap or disintegrate!! I'm a big sissy... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

and mine did do just that [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif[/img] ! ( timing belt incident ) but it would have happened even at idle I guess..

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=75257:date=Jul 9 2009, 08:30 PM:name=rhudeboye)-->QUOTE (rhudeboye @ Jul 9 2009, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->At 315HP thats no easy task. Not sure how much is lost going from tip to manual but either way I would expect the results to be flipped.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Back to this.. I called my friend, his car was a 2004. Yes, 315 hp at 6800 rpm, but the C4 tiptronic coupe itself weighs almost 3400 lbs, and though I can't find the stats of the cabriolet anywhere I'm guessing at the very least another 150lbs , maybe 200 on top of that ? Also that's before all the optional bells and whistles electronics most people that can afford a $ 90k car tend to load on to that baby and dragging the weight even further

So if you have a 968 with a few mods which bring it around 265 hp, and weigh just under 3000 lbs , racing a 315 hp
automatic transmission car which weighs 3500 or 3600 lbs, it's not that uneven of a match.. all I know is that I raced him several times and always pulled ahead, and also drove his car ( solo ) quite a few times and I was not overly impressed with its performance.

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[flash]

yeah - i used to spank the C4s running up and down the canyon in palisades - not even a match

and i think the C4 tip cab is around 3700lbs

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[ds968]

Production 2000–2006
Assembly Regensburg, Germany
Body style(s) 2-door coupe
2-door convertible
Platform BMW E46
Engine(s) 3.2 L I6
Transmission(s) 6 Speed Manual
6 Speed SMG Drivelogic
Wheelbase 107.5 in (2731 mm)
Length 2000-02: 176.8 in (4491 mm)
2003-05: 176.9 in (4493 mm)
Width 70.1 in (1781 mm)
Height Coupe: 54.0 in (1372 mm)
2001-02 Convertible: 53.7 in (1364 mm)
2003-05 Coupe: 53.9 in (1369 mm)
Curb weight Coupe: 3,415 lb (1,549 kg)


The M 3 coupe is 3400 lbs. The cab is probably 3700, just like the C4 cab, although with 20 more ponies.. SMG or not it still should have spanked my 968...but it didn't, for likely the reasons you mentioned in the earlier post .

The point is that even if it had I would have still been running relatively close, so the head rebuilt must have given it some fresh power which makes up for the lesser kick I now experience at 4200rpm..

PSA - don't assume power/weight ratios mean everything ; reminds me when I was young and naive ( five years ago [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img] after modding the 968 ) and one of my soccer team colleagues had a 2000 M5, constantly praising it's massive power to the point of pissing me off and one day when he was giving two other people a ride, me having quickly calculating in my head 400 hp at 4000 lbs + two passengers for a total of 4300 lbs +..hey, maybe close enough to stay with him toe to toe.. Uhhh, I'll refrain from posting what happened that day, but I guess that car has enough torque to tow a 747 and still outrun most of the sports cars of its generation..

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[flash]

the head rebuild would definitely give you back power you had lost - also, typically worn valve and guides cause a more noticeable low end loss than high end, with the noticeable exception that at high end, it would smoke more - the normal result is that fresh valves and guides would bring up some of that low end loss to normal, thereby lessening the difference

however, the kick at 4200 should still be noticeable, s that is where the dual resonance manifold comes on "boost" and works with the cams

i suspect there are multiple things going on contributing to the situation, and will be able to tell as soon as i drive it

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[Cloud9...68]

You guys are all making good points. I agree that the key is probably that not too many drivers have the cajones to keep the pedal to the metal beyond 150 mph [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif[/img] . Speaking for myself, nothing gives me greater pleasure than pushing my 968 to its absolute limits on the track, but I would NEVER exceed 100 mph on a public road. Even 80 makes me nervous, for many reasons.

Let me relay my own story. A couple of years ago, I was at a DE at Motorsports Ranch near Fort Worth. I was a in tad over my head in my group (having recently been promoted), and noticed a guy in a late model Toyota Spyder doing quite well. He was a better driver than me, and passed me several times during the course of the day. But as the day wore on, I progressed rapidly, to the point where I found myself able to keep up with much better cars (i.e. Cayman, Lotus Elise) in the corners, only to have them blow by me in the straights. Well, by the end of the day, I was allowed to do my first solo run. Anxious to see if I could keep up with the guy in the Spyder, I was pleased to see we were lined up back to back, with me in front of him. It was my best run ever; I was flying through the corners, and could see in my rear view mirror that I was taking them at roughly the same speed as the Spyder driver. "Awesome," I thought, "I should be able to easily lose him and his pipsqueak 140 hp engine (and automatic trans) in the straights." To my amazement, not only couldn't I pull away from him, I think he may have gained a tad on me. Let's call it even. At least he couldn't pass me.

I'm not trying to knock ther 968 - I love my car, and would love to someday bring it up to its true potential. I'm just struggling to reconcile some of your guys' exploits with my own experience.

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=75476:date=Jul 13 2009, 02:47 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Jul 13 2009, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->however, the kick at 4200 should still be noticeable, s that is where the dual resonance manifold comes on "boost" and works with the cams<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

it's definitley noticeable, just not nearly as pronounced as I seem to remember it . yup, you'll see for yourself in a couple of weeks

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=75483:date=Jul 13 2009, 05:03 PM:name=Cloud9...68)-->QUOTE (Cloud9...68 @ Jul 13 2009, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I would NEVER exceed 100 mph on a public road. Even 80 makes me nervous, for many reasons.
I'm just struggling to reconcile some of your guys' exploits with my own experience.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think you may have the answer to the puzzle right there. Most tracks probably do not have long enough straigtawys where you can consistently run the car above 100mph without coming up on a turn so you can't test
how well the 968 really does against a lot of the better lower end performers once in those triple digit speeds.

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[flash]

the higher the speed the more power is required - it's also geometrically incremental - however, aerodynamics come into play too, and a more aerodynamic car with less horsepower can outrun a higher horsepower car that is less aerodynamic

the 968 has about 20 sq ft of frontal area and a cx of .34 - the bmw has a frontal area of 26ft and a cx of .32

so, where the M3 is slightly more aerodynamic, it has a lot more frontal area to push - this would tend to limit its top speed relative to available power - the 968 with 265 hp would be capable of 160 or so, but the M3 needs more power to go the same speed - it has even more, hence its higher top end, but with 333 it only does 176 - you can see that the advantages it had down at lower speeds diminish as speeds get higher - where the M3 would be using 265hp is likely about 140mph

bottom line, mph per hp, our car is faster

best car i can think of in modern history for that is the 2.4l lotus - 240hp and 165mph

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=75486:date=Jul 13 2009, 06:10 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Jul 13 2009, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->best car i can think of in modern history for that is the 2.4l lotus - 240hp and 165mph<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

if you're talking about the esprit, that puppy took corners like a dream also, so even more reason to pay tribute to it.

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[wasserkuhl]

I think that we all perceive certain cars as being fast, because of magazine articles, HP ratings etc etc...
The singlemost powerful improvement we can make to a motor car is "add less weight" as per Lotus founder Colin Chapman coined....

an E46 M3 is a fast car. Its heavy though. weight = less fun ultimately. Physics don't lie.

The 968 coupe, for some reason was great fun to drive, I liked it but did feel that maybe it 'needs more power' to match the sublime chassis. Then, I drove a 968 CS, which blew my mind. How can the removal of 50 Kgs, the addition of decent suspension and an LSD transform a car so much? because it does. Subsequently I have removed more weight, chipped, airboxed and opened the exhaust up. which makes the car perfect IMO.

I don't really go hunting for races on the street, maybe in the hills a little bit... But the thing that makes this car so good is the big, Ive-got-a-coat-hanger-in-my-mouth grin I get driving it.

The car is BALANCED. Not loads of HP and TQ in a fat body. just nicely balanced.

Some of us just stumble accross these freak cars, like blind squirrels stumble accross the odd acorn....

ENjoy it!!!

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