[TheMirror]

OK, so I've searched and searched, looked at the various options, and I'm still no closer to figuring out what a good suspension choice is for me.



Here's the application:



My car for the forseeable future (next 2 years) will be primarily used on the street, for long haul pleasure drives. I will do approximately 3, maybe 4 DE's a year.



Initially I had imagined Koni single adjustables all around, HR springs up front and M030 sway bars would do the trick. They still might.



BUT



In a search I learn that you have to remove the rear shocks to adjust them? Seriously? Not something I relish at all.



Are the Bilstein rears a good plug-in choice for the above setup vs. the Koni rears?



Then I consider Pete's Club Sport option, but I really want the car to ride as well as possible. Thoughts on that?



<img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/unsure.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

you would really only set the rears once, so, it shouldn't be an issue - they only have a limited number of positions anyway



this is a tough one - there are a lot of options



to determine what would be best, really you need to decide how stiff is too stiff - can you cite any examples that you have driven of a car that is too stiff?



what kind of budget are we dealing with?

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[sasilverbullet]

I had this same conversation with a friend that's a very experienced racer/DE/autocross guru. His suggestion was to put MO30 sway bars on along with some better brake pads and a corner balance and leave everything else alone. Then drive it for a few DE's and then see if there's something else you might need to do. Remember our cars are heavy and if you really want to be competitive you're going to have to spend big bucks.



Try his suggestion out before you start changing shocks, etc.



Disclaimer: This suggestion assumes you have the car in primo mechanical condition!!! Brake Fluid changed often, etc...

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[Brian]

i don't want to hijack the post. i know very little about suspension work.

has anyone ever considered an air suspension for this car?

i've got one in the touareg. when i feel like driving hard, i set it in sport mode. it adjusts the ride height and stiffness. when the wife's driving with the kid, she sets it in comfort mode. you can manually raise and lower the car while driving via an onboard switch.



i have no idea what's involved in such a system, but it would be really neat to be able to incorporate it with our car.



imagine parking with your awesome front ground effects and just being able to lift the car up to avoid scraping.

on the highway, you could lower it down for gas economy.

if you're just cruising (like that would ever happen!), you could set it in squishy mode.



just a random thought.

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[968bill]

I'm in exactly the same boat as Mirror but my issue is the car has the original shocks and 106k mi on the clock and they need replacing. I need to make a decision soon not wait for a few more DE's. And after this w/e's DE event I know I won't be moving to advanced or Club Racing anytime soon!

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[mitch968]

I'm still on the original suspension at 82k miles, so I'm also thinking about suspension lately. A friend of mine said to go for the upgraded sway bars first, so I'm thinking about stepping up to M030 bars before making any decision on my shocks/springs. I figure I can change those out easily enough and feel the effect of one change at a time. For an almost strictly street car (maybe a DE or two in my future), what setting are most people using on the rear M030 bar?

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[TheMirror]

This is the boat I am in. Not sure if my rear shocks have been replaced, but under hard cornering they do feel soft. Thus, I will need to replace them, and figure I will consider a spring change while I'm at it.



flash - I can handle stiff more than harsh. Harsh, jiggily ride just irritates the hell out of me. A mismatch of springs and Koni's on my WRX drove me nuts within 200 miles, and I swapped out the springs for a Prodrive set that solved the problem.

Therefore, I can handle some stiffness over big bumps, but I NEED a controlled low to medium speed ride. Sounds like Koni's on full soft to me initially, but not sure how full soft translates into the rear suspension in this car.









[quote name='968bill' date='May 1 2006, 12:14 PM']I'm in exactly the same boat as Mirror but my issue is the car has the original shocks and 106k mi on the clock and they need replacing. I need to make a decision soon not wait for a few more DE's. And after this w/e's DE event I know I won't be moving to advanced or Club Racing anytime soon!

[right][post="20148"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

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[TheMirror]

Thankfully, I have no designs on shaving 10ths at the track at this stage, so a trackable street setup is the direction I'll go. My car has over 100K with shocks of unknown provenance, thus the questions and confusion.



M030 sway bars for sure though.



Thanks

-Mirror





[quote name='sasilverbullet' date='May 1 2006, 11:17 AM']I had this same conversation with a friend that's a very experienced racer/DE/autocross guru.  His suggestion was to put MO30 sway bars on along with some better brake pads and a corner balance and leave everything else alone.  Then drive it for a few DE's and then see if there's something else you might need to do.  Remember our cars are heavy and if you really want to be competitive you're going to have to spend big bucks.



Try his suggestion out before you start changing shocks, etc.



Disclaimer:  This suggestion assumes you have the car in primo mechanical condition!!!  Brake Fluid changed often, etc...

[right][post="20142"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

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[Anchorman]

For what it's worth - on my daily driver that does a couple of DE events a year, but needed suspension freshening, I installed replacment standard shocks on the rear (KYB) and Koni yellow in front from Paragon. Last week I had the M030 sway bars installed, along with 944 turbo castor blocks. The car feels much tighter, and I'm done. If nothing breaks, nothing more will get "fixed" as far as suspension is concerned. The car is still quite comfortable as a daily driver - no harshness, just crispness. And, most importantly, no complaints from any passengers (particularly my wife).

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[TheMirror]

That right there sounds exactly like what I'm looking for. Is there any advantage of going for Bilstein HD over the standard KYB? Just curious. Also, what's a good source for the KYB replacements?



Also, exactly which castor blocks did you include? OEM 951 items, or were they the Racer's Edge upgraded ones, or another type?



Thanks,



-Mirror



[quote name='Anchorman' date='May 1 2006, 12:51 PM']For what it's worth - on my daily driver that does a couple of DE events a year, but needed suspension freshening, I installed replacment standard shocks on the rear (KYB) and Koni yellow in front from Paragon.  Last week I had the M030 sway bars installed, along with 944 turbo castor blocks.  The car feels much tighter, and I'm done.  If nothing breaks, nothing more will get "fixed" as far as suspension is concerned.  The car is still quite comfortable as a daily driver - no harshness, just crispness.  And, most importantly, no complaints from any passengers (particularly my wife).

[right][post="20160"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

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[flash]

well, really you do need to find the "too stiff" line - springing, and not shocks, are what's really going to make the car corner - shocks are only there to dampen the springs - contrary to the mistake a number of people make, you won't get better cornering out of a stiffer shock (and there is a difference between cornering and handling) - all you will do is calm that spring down more - the final load and lean rates are the same



a stiffer shock will make the ride bumpier though



so, determining what you are looking for in ride is key - it may well be that you want a stiffer spring and a SOFTER shock - having comparisons is a good tool to decide - find a car that is too stiff, so you have a point not to go beyond



again though, it comes to budget too - if shocks and struts are gone, then surely upgrading to the konis is a good idea - it does give you the opportunity though to make other changes more cost effective by doing them at the same time



konis yellows all around, with H&R 190-230 springs up front is a nice combination with little compromise, and lowers the car 1"



for an additional 50 bucks, you can go to linear 200# springs with threaded collars up front, gain full height adjustability, and have a better matched spring to the stock torsion bar rate, but lose a touch of front ride smoothness



after that, you need to spend a few hundred more, but you get more options



in any event, a full 4 wheel alignment is going to be the single biggest component to success



also, i would not upgrade the suspension at all without a strut tower brace



the kyb is a very decent low cost shock for the rear - it is soft though too, so if you plan to push the car hard, or make changes up front - it won't be enough - i love kybs, and have run them on other cars for decades - i had ron put them on his car - they work fine for a stock replacement, and with stock spring rates in a street car

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[TheMirror]

I would like to lower the stance a bit, and I've always liked the compromise variable spring rate springs have given me on other vehicles. The H&Rs are most likely the way I'd go for that.



4 wheel alignment for sure, and car already has the strut brace.



Cheers,



-Mirror



[quote name='flash' date='May 1 2006, 01:09 PM']well, really you do need to find the "too stiff" line - springing, and not shocks, are what's really going to make the car corner - shocks are only there to dampen the springs - contrary to the mistake a number of people make, you won't get better cornering out of a stiffer shock (and there is a difference between cornering and handling) - all you will do is calm that spring down more - the final load and lean rates are the same



a stiffer shock will make the ride bumpier though



so, determining what you are looking for in ride is key - it may well be that you want a stiffer spring and a SOFTER shock - having comparisons is a good tool to decide - find a car that is too stiff, so you have a point not to go beyond



again though, it comes to budget too - if shocks and struts are gone, then surely upgrading to the konis is a good idea - it does give you the opportunity though to make other changes more cost effective by doing them at the same time



konis yellows all around, with H&R 190-230 springs up front is a nice combination with little compromise, and lowers the car 1"



for an additional 50 bucks, you can go to linear 200# springs with threaded collars up front, gain full height adjustability, and have a better matched spring to the stock torsion bar rate, but lose a touch of front ride smoothness



after that, you need to spend a few hundred more, but you get more options



in any event, a full 4 wheel alignment is going to be the single biggest component to success



also, i would not upgrade the suspension at all without a strut tower brace

[right][post="20165"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

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[flash]

sweet - good to hear - that means you can play with alignment specs (there is a thread here with some examples of spec setups)



the H&R, and now the matching hypercoil, are the only progressives i've heard of, other than my porsche motorsport tech art/eibach springs (and i have the only pair i've been able to find)- i also like a progressive front spring, but will be removing it this week, in favor of a stiffer linear spring - mine lower the car 1.75" though, which is too much for most people, and requires a rear suspension change to achieve balance



i would not install the kyb with the H&R - it's just a bit soft for a hardtop, which is 66# tail heavy - not too bad for a cab though, which is about the same amount tail light - that is what ron did in his hardtop, and now, the car feels a bit unbalanced and rear soft - he will need a stiffer rear setup, but we haven't figured out anything besides the koni, without getting crazy - any additional rear spring rate will mean rear lift, and that involves torsion bar reindexing - no go

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[TheMirror]

OK, so this is helping a bunch. With standard springs, Koni fronts, KYB rears and M030 sway bars....plus castor blocks per Anchorman.



With H&R or Hypercoil springs, go with Konis in the rear.



The question is, what shock setting to commit to before installing the Koni's in the rear?

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[flash]

one half turn from full stiff seems to be the general consensus for street use with stock spring rates - full stiff if you have stiffer springs

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[bob blackwell]

Yeah, I have the rear Koni shocks on full stiff and just leave them there for daily driving as well as track events. I leave the M030 rear anti-sway bar on the stiff setting as well (shortest lever arm position, furthest in from the end). My car has 28 mm torsion bars, H&R progressive rate front springs and Koni struts & shocks with M030 anti-sway bars front and rear. New castor mounts and delrin bushings on the anti-sway bars. Not uncomfortable to me or my wife and very good on the track. Good luck, Bob Blackwell.

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[flash]

yup - that's a good match - everything equally bumped up - good deal



now, that car would probably drive ron (midlblu) nuts as too stiff, and is definitely too stiff for one of our other local guys, who really likes it smooth, so again, really, having some form of comparison is the best way to find out what's right for you, before jumping in and making changes you may later find you want to undo and start over

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[bibbetson]

I have found the following (in that order) to work very well for me. I drive 8-10 autocrosses (large parking lot events) and 3-4 track events a year. Driven right, this can be a very fast setup.



- GOOD alignment / corner balance

- M030 sway-bars

- Koni sport front (200 - 250 lbs) depending on tire choices

- Koni sport rear

- LSD

- Strut brace

- Pagid orange or Porterfield R-4 brake pads (they will squeak terrible - if you want quiet I like the Porterfield R-4S but they will get smoked on a fast track)



My feeling is that for the 968, this is the best bang for your buck suspension that you can buy. It will be only slightly stiffer than stock, but will provide very good car control. It also offers a lot of tunability.



The only down side of this setup is that if you end up wanting to step-up the racing that you are doing, you will likely be throwing away a lot. If you are at all concerned with this, then I would look very seriously at the choices available from LEDA.



A 968 with this setup can run in the top 10 at both autocross and medium speed track events (excluding full race cars).

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[TheMirror]

"- Koni sport front (200 - 250 lbs) depending on tire choices"



Thanks very much for the input, its all helping! Curious as to what the 200-250 lbs. is in reference to. Is that a setting on the shock or spring rates?



Cheers,

-Mirror



[quote name='bibbetson' date='May 1 2006, 03:11 PM']I have found the following (in that order) to work very well for me.  I drive 8-10 autocrosses (large parking lot events) and 3-4 track events a year.  Driven right, this can be a very fast setup.



- GOOD alignment / corner balance

- M030 sway-bars

- Koni sport front (200 - 250 lbs) depending on tire choices

- Koni sport rear

- LSD

- Strut brace

- Pagid orange or Porterfield R-4 brake pads (they will squeak terrible - if you want quiet I like the Porterfield R-4S but they will get smoked on a fast track)



My feeling is that for the 968, this is the best bang for your buck suspension that you can buy.  It will be only slightly stiffer than stock, but will provide very good car control.  It also offers a lot of tunability.



The only down side of this setup is that if you end up wanting to step-up the racing that you are doing, you will likely be throwing away a lot.  If you are at all concerned with this, then I would look very seriously at the choices available from LEDA.



A 968 with this setup can run in the top 10 at both autocross and medium speed track events (excluding full race cars).

[right][post="20195"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]

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[flash]

i have a question about that too - since i presume that means you are changing your springs, have you found a way to change them without loosening the camber adjuster?

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