[sp4149]

Yesterday took our 95 Cab to a test only Smog station. About a year ago, the catalytic converter failed, plugging the exhaust. The shop installed a German aftermarket CAT, recommended by the local Porsche parts supplier. The failed Cat was NOT OEM, having been replaced by a previous owner/dealer in Florida; according to Carfax our car had been through two dealer leases in Florida. Still the car passed the two previous smog tests with the wrong Cat. This time the test facility not only tested emissions but as part of their visual they checked the Catalytic converter number against the ones approved for this car and didn't get a match. The previous Cat replacement had removed the flanges in the exhaust and welded the cat in-line. Last year the shop replaced with the same. I suspect that the correct part number is for a cat converter with flanges while the same cat converter without the flanges might be unlisted.

I feel like I'm stuck as I'm now on record as having a tampered exhaust system, modified catalytic converter, wrong catalytic converter.
If only the OEM part passes state approval I don't have the wherewithall to go that route. Since this was originally a Florida car, would it have had a different Cat than a California Car?

This incident went a long way to ruining the weekend. Maybe I can get a waiver or register the car as planned non-operational. For those of you in California, I apologize if I have alarmed you with this story. I may have found one of the few Test Only smog check stations that is this thorough; it was also a Gold Shield repair station (that may have been my mistake).

-sp4149

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[banditsc]

It seems there is a lot more that in CA now with the budeget issues and IOU's being handed out. Need to get revenue from somewhere..

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[sbdrivingdotcom]

All 968s for the US market were the same. There were no different cars for the California market and emissions. I think all you need to do is find out which CAT is approved and have it replaced. Alternatively, you could go back to the shop that made the repair and plead your case. They should have installed an approved part.

Both of my 968s have passed the CA smog test without a problem and hardly any emissions. I've been through the "gross poluter" designation by the state of CA and all you need to do is make the approved repair and all is good. Good luck!

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[flash]

since it is illegal to install a non-compliant cat, i would definitely go back to the shop and force them to fix it - threaten to report them to B.A.R. if needed - the fines are huge for installing illegal cats

alternatively, you many just be able to go to another station, although nowadays with the computerized network, you may have a red flag attached that will prohibit another tester without correction

be aware that you are allowed to change cats, if you can prove that yours was damaged or had failed, but you do need to use one that is on their list, or failing a list being available for the car, one that was designed for a similar car

you may end up at the B.A.R. referee station - it isn't horrible, but it is a pain in the butt

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[Johannvb]

So what do the guys with the RS Barn systems do? Is the CAT in there on the list, or do you remove the exhaust and replace with stock for the yearly checks?

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[flash]

that cat is not on the list - most guys have not gotten nailed by the visual inspection - not all of them are that thorough - a lot of them are like customs "do you have anything illegal in your bag?"

i got stuck once, with one of my cats (i had already removed the RS Barn cats that i had tried) , but i had the CA number on it, and was able to BS the guy past it - i now have the OEM cat back in there, and blew through the visual this last go around

since we have mobile sniffer stations that can pull you over for gross polluting when their gadget goes off as you drive by, and impound your car, costing thousands of dollars to get back, i am not a proponent of running the risk and doing the bi-annual swap out thing

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[rxter]

<!--quoteo(post=77258:date=Aug 10 2009, 07:22 AM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Aug 10 2009, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->since we have mobile sniffer stations that can pull you over for gross polluting when their gadget goes off as you drive by, and impound your car, costing thousands of dollars to get back, i am not a proponent of running the risk and doing the bi-annual swap out thing<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You must be joking. This place is like a police state. Tennessee was so much easier...just don't shoot the neighbor and leave a mess, and you were pretty much free to do what you wanted. Well, at least we can grow and purchase all manner of interesting plants for our illnesses....

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[flash]

not joking - they are definitely here - seen 3 of them myself - personally know of at least 2 cars impounded - watched one being loaded on the truck - one cost nearly $20k to get back all in

they impound the car, charge you their rates to remove the illegal items and install the correct stuff - on top of that there are fines and such, and your attorney's costs to sort it all out

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[94SilverCab]

In PA I am "emissions exempt" if I run my 968 under 5,000 miles/year...I could run a blown hemi and they won't stop me....LOL.

Jay

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[flash]

ok - next post should be a cartoon dan digs up

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[sp4149]

<!--quoteo(post=77253:date=Aug 10 2009, 06:48 AM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Aug 10 2009, 06:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->since it is illegal to install a non-compliant cat, i would definitely go back to the shop and force them to fix it - threaten to report them to B.A.R. if needed - the fines are huge for installing illegal cats

alternatively, you many just be able to go to another station, although nowadays with the computerized network, you may have a red flag attached that will prohibit another tester without correction

be aware that you are allowed to change cats, if you can prove that yours was damaged or had failed, but you do need to use one that is on their list, or failing a list being available for the car, one that was designed for a similar car

you may end up at the B.A.R. referee station - it isn't horrible, but it is a pain in the butt<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I talked with the mechanic; he said the law was changed this year; the Cat was changed last year. I'm waiting for a call back from the shop owner. Anyone know what was the change in the law? Seems unfair to make the law retroactive, especially if the previous Cat had failed and the car wasn't driveable.

Meanwhile the registration renewal date is Sunday. With a gross polluter I was allowed to renew with a grace period. What can I do with a tampered exhaust to maintain registration without late penalties; renew with planned non-operation until the issue is resolved?

In the past I had always gone to a test only station near DMV, about 10 miles away, they had dyno capacity for three cars, but no lifts. I don't know how they could check Cat numbers. Lazy me took the Cab to a local (1.5 mile) Gold Shield station that just became a Test Only Station. Couldn't figure out why they had the Cab up on the lift after the emissions test, until they explained that they couldn't match the Cat number to the car. Of course they did the emissions before the visual so they could charge me for all the tests. Lesson learned; find a test only station without a lift or inspection pit, if they still exist.

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[flash]

it is and always has been illegal to remove or alter the cat unless it was damaged or non-functional - i don't think that has changed

as you say, even if that law lightened up, he cannot retroactively apply that, since the previous standard is what is preventing you from being compliant

you may have to call the BAR and have them call the shop

i would try to locate this "list" - call CARB - they should have it available - at least that way, if the shop won't fix it on their dime, you can locate a cat on that list and have it installed - i would then do it at a shop that does smogs - if they won't smog a car they do the work on, you can sue them

if the fees are paid, you will not incur late penalties - the certificate is independent of the fees - pay the fees - work out the certificate as you can - keep that paperwork in the car in the event of being pulled over while working it out

do NOT do a planned non-operation if you plan to use the car at all - if you get pulled over, it is VERY expensive - also, your insurance will NOT be in effect, regardless of whether or not you notify your insurance company

they check cat numbers typically with a mirror on an arm, like they do when they look under your car at the border - it is odd to see them put it on a lift - like you said, most places don't even have that

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=77302:date=Aug 10 2009, 12:59 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Aug 10 2009, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->ok - next post should be a cartoon dan digs up<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Of a blown Hemi ? Hey, I might come up with something regarding a blown seal ( insert classic eskimo joke here.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] ) or may be you are talking about a Cat cartoon .. ? Sorry, nothing with which to entertain the troops
on this thread [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

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[flash]

nah - i envisioned a 968 cartoon drawing, engine and blower sticking out the hood, with a knuckle dragging ape behind the wheel

like those old wacky pack stickers we had when we were kids

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[S_Cal968]

In CA. all aftermarket parts have to include a CARB number [California air resources board]. It may be worth it to check into the new law. Depending on the terms, if you have the receipt dated before the enforcement date and the fact is a "49-state" car, perhaps they cut you some slack. Since your car passed emissions I'm surprized they didn't send you to a referee station. The referee can apply a 49 state sticker which will cover future inspections.
I once bought a 49 state truck and had a similar issue.

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[sp4149]

<!--quoteo(post=77338:date=Aug 10 2009, 07:58 PM:name=S_Cal968)-->QUOTE (S_Cal968 @ Aug 10 2009, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->In CA. all aftermarket parts have to include a CARB number [California air resources board]. It may be worth it to check into the new law. Depending on the terms, if you have the receipt dated before the enforcement date and the fact is a "49-state" car, perhaps they cut you some slack. Since your car passed emissions I'm surprized they didn't send you to a referee station. The referee can apply a 49 state sticker which will cover future inspections.
I once bought a 49 state truck and had a similar issue.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

From the ARB website:
<b><i>The ARB adopted revised regulations and evaluation procedures in October 2007 for the approval of new aftermarket catalytic converters sold in California. The requirements apply to all new aftermarket converters produced for sale or sold in California after January 1, 2009. The requirements also sunset provisions allowing the sale of certified used catalytic converters beginning July 10, 2008. This means that no used converter can be legally advertised for sale, sold, or installed in California after this date.</i></b>

I'm going to investigate further, but I think the TEST Only station misinterpreted the law by not determining when the Cat was installed. I told them it was replaced a year ago in 2008; but they were adamant in failing the car. The previous Cat which had been there maybe eight years, would have failed without a CARB number. An OEM cat will not have a CARB number so if the dealer had installed an OEM replacement (8-10 years ago) the test station would have failed it because they determined by inspection that the Cat had been replaced and did not have a valid CARB number.
The last sentence makes me wonder if now possession of a used Catalytic converter has become illegal since they cannot be sold or installed? Is this a law enforcement attempt to combat theft of Catalytic converters for their scrap value? Sounds like you can't sell them to a scrap metal dealer. How do you dispose of them, ship them out of state?

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[flash]

actually, the OEM has a CA number on it - i told the welder to make sure to make that visible when i reinstalled it - i'll get under there and get the number this afternoon or tomorrow morning

it still sounds like you have to do the same thing though - he installed an illegal cat - that needs to be changed to a legal cat - he never should have done that, was not legally in a position to do that, and could still get nailed for having done it

hopefully he will take care of it rather than get reported to BAR - other than that, you will need to get one from the list and have it installed

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[sp4149]

There has been a lot of web chat on this subject in my google search. Some read the regulations to apply only to Cat installations after January 1st, 2009. I haven't found anything stating that installations prior to 2009 have to comply retroactively. Nor have I found a simple way to dispute the determination by the Test Only station that this modification must meet 1/1/2009 requirements.

The BAR web site show the test record as "T" in the Pass/Fail column on the vehicle history of smog checks. Is a BAR referee required to over ride the "T"? How much is the Referee fee? ($200+?) The Referee Center Facts Sheet does not list
non-compliant catalytic converter inspection among their services. It does state that modified emissions parts must be replaced. Which implies that they merely inspect to assure replacement and do not review the Test Only Station's determination that it was an illegal modification. I haven't found an appeals mechanism. I will inquire with a Referee.

Interesting that there are no aftermarket Cats approved for Porsches shown on the BAR web site and since it is now illegal to install a used Cat, only new factory Cats would be allowed. That ought to get some 944/968's scrapped in the cash for clunkers program.

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[flash]

i'd call them up - they are actually pretty easy to get ahold of

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[968Syncro]

I am going through this exact scenario for my VW Van, and am not done yet. It has failed twice so far, once when I first went to the test only station, and then brought it to a VW shop (they do lots of Vanagons) and they couldn't get it through. The recommended next step is to install a brand new CA certified cat; they tested exhaust before and after the cat and could see that it wasn't performing correctly. Total about $500.00, for a $400 CA certified cat. The rest of world cat is only $135 and nobody I've spoken to understands how the certified cat performs differently from the rest of world cat.

For further info, this is an '89, and I got a flier with the registration for the Consumer Assistance Program (CAP). Under this program, if you fail a test, then I can take it to a Gold Shield CAP certified repair facility and I pay the first $100 of repairs, and the state pays the next $500 of repairs. Unfortunately the station I chose came back with a repair estimate of $2,266.72 to "improve" an exhaust valve. It gets worse; I can also get a waiver for this car if I put in $450.00 of repairs from certified smog shops and it still didn't pass. However this shop can't do just a bit of repairs, like trying a new cat for example, since they are required to put the car in "fuel control", meaning their determination is to do the valve job and they aren't allowed to try anything else. And of course in this case, their is no guarantee that improving the valve will get it to pass, they may come back and say I need the new cat also. A real catch-22, can't apply for the waiver, or pay over $2K -- oh the car is running fine, absolutely nothing wrong. Last approach is to go back to the VW shop, pay the $500 for the CA certified cat, pass, and then repeat every 2 years. Or I can try to install the non-CA cat (only $135.00) and simply give it a shot to see if it will pass, but I saw the warnings above! So not sure this is such a good idea after all.

The government is stealing my money for no good reason.

Roland

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