[Brian]

this may turn into a long description....

i could use some advice before i go to a mechanic.



starting last fall, occasionally i'd turn the key and get a click, turn it again and get nothing, turn it off and on again and the car would start right up. only happened once in a while.



a few weeks ago, i was driving home and the car stalled on the expressway. the dash lights and gauges went blank for a second or two and then the car roll-started itself and all was fine again.



a week later, same thing while in the middle of an intersection. ouch! car really died this time. i turned the key, the starter turned hard but no start. tried it for two minutes and then it started right up and all was well.



a week later, the stall/roll start thing again.



i replaced the entire ignition last fall - rotor, cap, coil, wires, plugs (checked all connections - tight.). i just replaced the ignition switch. the battery and battery cables are new (checked all connections and they are firm). i replaced the dme relay with the 993 one last fall. this morning, i sprayed out the relays and fuse box with a little contact spray. this winter, i cleaned up all the contacts inside and out on the starter with contact spray. i also replaced the check valve on the fuel pump and replaced the fuel filter.



here's my thoughts... the click when trying to start is probably a bad starter solenoid. the stalling and now not even starting (this morning).... fuel delivery? perhaps a bad fuel pump or fuel press reg? i can't help but think that it's all related somehow. when it's running, the car is great.



i even ran the blink code test and nothing came up.



as it sits now, it's dead in my garage. the starter is turning very strong, but it just won't start.



please help!!!! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/sad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

i tend to think you may have a couple of unrelated problems



first, check the DME relay - if you don't have a spare, GET ONE - very likely this is the non-start problem



as for the "click", this could be a couple of things, anywhere from the switch to a loose plate in one cell in the battery



unfortunately for this one, you will likely have to go point to point down the circuit to find the fault, verifying continuity each step of the way



take a good look at the ground of the battery though - this is very often the reason for the dead key

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[Brian]

thanks, flash.



i replaced the dme last year and kept the orig as a spare.

switching between the two (recently) resulted in the same symptoms... would have been a nice easy fix! <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



i tripped the airbag light when working on my dash a couple weeks ago. i wonder if that would throw things off internally?



are fuel pumps a common thing to go out on this car?



i remember reading that anchorman's batt cables needed tightening at one point. i'll check that out tonight... but it wouldn't explain the starter turning with no actual start.



it's been running so well! i've got to imagine that this is something small and simple...

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[Anchorman]

Brian, when I first saw this topic, I thought "I can help here." But, after reading your post, I concluded that you've done many (all?) of the things I would have thought of. You're correct, what I experienced would not explain your problems. I'm sure you're right that it is likely something small and simple - but I don't know what that might be. I wish you luck finding it quickly, and look forward to learning from your pain.

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[Brian]

thanks, anchor.

i've got a few relays on order that should be in today.

if that doesn't do it, i'll probably move on to the fuel pump....

gotta love 15 year old cars!

at least i'm eliminating things from the list.



if i can get it running, i'll drive over to the dealer and have the air bag light reset. maybe the bosch hammer will show something. (they agreed to reset it for me for free!!!)

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[Anchorman]

My dealer has a newer diagnostic device that they use instead of the Hammer. It goes through a complete system check; I know because I'm in the process of resolving my air bag light problem. Hopefully you'll learn everything you need to from that. I don't know if you've tried the gas pedal method for getting fault codes - my car won't do that, though.

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[jww968]

Alarm?

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[RPM]

Tricky one. I have had roughly the same symptoms and replaced starter, battery, and DME relay and cleaned all contacts, grounds, leads, etc.



So far it is starting.



Alarm was my next guess as well. Also, don't assume a nearly new battery is good.

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[S_Cal968]

There are two key areas to check with a start problem:

1) Fuel; check fuel pressure at the rail. This will determine either bad regulator, fuel lines or pump.

2) Spark; pull a plug and ground it to the valve cover, turn over the engine and listen for an arch snap sound[?]. A failure will point to the ignition which can be a challenge to sort out. Possible components include, coil, coil wire, DME, DME relay, distributor cap, ignition switch or related wiring.



Also if you run a search, there's a way to by-pass the DME relay using a shorting wire assembly which will fire up the DME and f/pump. [perhaps fire isn't the best word..?] This is better than carrying around questionable spare relay. I don't have the specifics for the assembly here at work but perhaps someone else can assist.

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[Brian]

i really appreciate all the advice.

saves so much time and money at the dealer/mechanic! plus, it's nice to do this stuff myself and really learn more about the car.



i was running through all the possible options last night of what could be wrong. i kept trying to start it and it just turned and turned. battery was strong. starter was strong. i figured, like socal said, it must be spark or fuel. i couldn't smell any gas. as hard as i was cranking it (and with some boating experience) i could tell it wasn't flooding, so i figured it must have been fuel.



i did replace the fuel filter last fall and the check valve on the fuel pump. i figured that maybe i shorted out a wire on the fuel pump when i re-installed it. it really is an awkward job with that plate and the hose clamp that holds the pump.



i was just about ready to push the car off a cliff and claim insurance when i realized that

1.) we don't have cliffs in michigan, and

2.) i'm not a bad guy and probably wouldn't be able to sleep at night with insurance fraud on my conscience, so...



i had a copy of the clark's garage article on diagnosing and repairing the dme relay. i just replaced it last fall as a precaution, so figured that it couldn't be bad, right? wrong! i took the relay out and knocked it against my hand a few times. put it back in and whammo, started right up. ran like a top. battery was a little low at this point, but...



so here's my quesition. last fall, i replaced the orig 944 relay (it was dated 1991!) with the new 993 one. all was well until about three weeks ago. that's when the syptoms got really bad. i put the original 944 one back in and the same symptoms persisted. doesn't make sense! how could two go bad just like that?



which leads me to my biggest question - is there something with this car that would burn out dme relays? should i replace my fuel pump? could the dme itself be bad or shorted? i've got a new relay coming monday. i'd hate to burn another one out!

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[flash]

could just be that you were unlucky - it does happen - however, try really getting some contact cleaner down in there and blow it out, making sure there is nothing to short pins



keep a spare, or keep wire to jump the pins - i'll have to check, and this is strictly by my recently fuzzy memory, but i think it's 15,87 and 87b

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[Brian]

thanks.

the new one will be in on monday.

i have the three contact emergency wire do-gizmo in the car now.

the clark's article said to use 30,87,87b. but i think it also mentioned that you could use another post other than 30.



the only reason i remember is that i had my fuzz buster going this morning <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/wink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[Brian]

okay, i am fuzzy....



forgot to ask, if the dme relay wasn't getting power to the dme, would that result in my clicking starter symptoms? or am i still stuck with a bad starter solenoid?

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[flash]

as i said, you probably have a couple of unrelated issues



quick way to answer your question - yank the relay and give it a try

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[sp4149]

[quote name='Brian' date='Apr 21 2006, 07:51 AM']okay, i am fuzzy....



forgot to ask, if the dme relay wasn't getting power to the dme, would that result in my clicking starter symptoms?  or am i still stuck with a bad starter solenoid?

[right][post="19582"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Brian,

The clicking generally indicates that the starter is not getting enough power. Last year I had this happen to me, even though the battery had been good. A new battery didn't completely eliminate the problem, but reduced the frequency. I decided to clean the solenoid (GSS) and then found out that the Tips have a different starter, which may not gum up as much as the starter for manual transmissions. After removing the starter I found that the ground strap on the starter was corroded where it attached to the starter body. Removing and cleaning the ground strap and terminal, coating it with corrosion inhibitor prior to reassembly has eliminated the problem. I had checked all the ground wires and they showed no signs of corrosion. Given the electrical design of these cars, owners who were lucky enough to upgrade to the heavier cables that IceShark was making should have fewer of these problems in the future.

-sp4149

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[Anchorman]

Having very recently experienced a "click" non-starting problem, I can tell you firsthand that corrosion affects all cables - even the IceShark ones. So, a word to ALL - inspect, clean, and corrosion inhibit the cables at the starter.

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[Brian]

thanks, guys.

now that the car is running again, i'll drive it up on ramps and reinspect the starter.

i wonder if i messed it up... i have ice shark cables from last summer and did the gummy starter cleanup this winter with the exhaust.



i wonder if it's the ground strap on the starter body....? did you just re-solder it onto the starter body?



what product is popular as a corrosion inhibitor? is there some special product?

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[Anchorman]

There is spray-on battery connection rust/corrosion inhibitor. It's usually, but not always, red.

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[Brian]

the famous flash "red goo"?

i'll grab some on my way home.



i've always been a little confused on when and where to use di-electric grease. at one point, i heard to use it on all elec connections, but then i heard that it's actually an insulator.



i heard that wheel bearing grease also works. any experience there?

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[sp4149]

[quote name='Brian' date='Apr 21 2006, 11:00 AM']thanks, guys.





what product is popular as a corrosion inhibitor?  is there some special product?

[right][post="19598"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Brian,

The most popular is probably WD-40, it's original use was to drive moisture out of hard to get places, thus inhibiting corrosion indirectly. CRC 2-26 (found at Home Depot) is another product that is a corrosion inhibitor, but unlike the stuff Sears Auto sells that is red, both of these are clear. My problem was corrosion at the terminal post where the ground strap attached. I coated it with dielectric grease as used on ignition wires, automobile lamp wiring, etc... I used the red stuff on the battery terminals, in the future I think CRC 2-26 and grease will be used instead, looks cleaner if nothing else.

-sp4149

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