[Grant968ts]

Is an adjustable camber plate a desirable modification for our 968?



The primary mileage of my 968 has been, and will be, on the street - many 5 mile city street drives, and regular 350 to 700 mile trips on Interstate and state roads. But it would be nice when out at the track to simply switch to another camber setting.



Is an adjustable camber plate worth it? If you have installed one, would you do it again? Do they affect the ride quality of the 968 such as adding noise or create a harsh ride? Which units are recommended?



Thanks



Grant

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[flash]

these cars are incredibly touchy when it comes to alignments specs - more so than any other car i've worked on - we have found that a tenth of a degree makes a difference - i find it hard to believe that you could go from one "setting" to another accurately without an alignment machine - these plates are cool, and certainly make life easier, but if you want max tire wear and street compliance with no pulling or wandering, i think it is going to be incredibly difficult to bounce back and forth - so far, everybody who has these has told me that the ride will be a bit noisier and harsher - still, when my upper bearings go, something like this is going in my car - i won't be changing the specs though without a machine

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[Jim Child]

I think camber plates are overkill for a street car. I'd only put them on a car that is primarily for the track.



If you decide you want them, these are the units to get:



http://www.racersedge-inc.com/camber2.html

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[Jason Judd]

I, too, have Racer's Edge camber plates for my track car.



I wouldn't even think about it for a street car...



Jason

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[KensCab]

I have to agree, they are great for a car like my 944, DE, AutoX, and that type stuff, but I also believe they would be 'lost' on a steet car that even just did the occassional event. Put (less) of your money into a tower strut bar if you just want to 'play' and drive it mainly on the street.

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[flash]

i agree and the only reason i would do it is because i refuse to buy those crazy expensive rubber ones - i'm not paying for more slop in my suspension - i will probably go with the kla fixed position mount

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[GREYGHOST]

Is an adjustable camber plate worth it? If you have installed one, would you do it again? Do they affect the ride quality of the 968 such as adding noise or create a harsh ride? Which units are recommended?





I would get rid of the upper rubber slop in the top mount. this would add noise to the front end. if you are just going to set them a forget they would work fine.

but if you plan on changing the amount of camber at a DE or AutoX then you would have to keep changing the toe setting as it would change them also. If you

are looking for camber it is adjustable on the strut, I run mine a 2.8 neg measured

on a alignment machine. this does lead to tire wear on the street but I can live with it a front set of tires last about 15k.



I run my autoX set up all the time.



thanks rob

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[Jason Judd]

The reason we put in the Racer's Edge adjustable camber plates was to be able to get more neg. camber, and also to get rid of the rubber.



We're running 3 degrees...but I didn't think you could get 2.8 with the stock setup. With that amount from stock, I don't think I would have done it, either. I doubt I could tell the difference between 2.8 and 3.0!



Jason

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[GREYGHOST]

[quote name='Jason Judd' date='Mar 21 2005, 08:12 AM']The reason we put in the Racer's Edge adjustable camber plates was to be able to get more neg. camber, and also to get rid of the rubber.



We're running 3 degrees...but I didn't think you could get 2.8 with the stock setup.  With that amount from stock, I don't think I would have done it, either.  I doubt I could tell the difference between 2.8 and 3.0!



Jason

[right][post="2130"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]





I used the eccentric on the strut and pushed hard on the top of the rotor to get

the max. the plus side of chamber plates is the you loose the rubber isolator on

top of the strut, some designs lower the car this way without shortening the

spring length. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



thanks Rob

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[heyou]

First post on here, i'm in UK and have just discovered your forum - so Hi to everyone.



This is a very interesting thread as it brings together several issues that i'm trying to address - Track geometry setups - adjustable camber plates and tyre wear. I have an 94 Club Sport (M030) with KW Variant 3 coilover height and bump/rebound adjustable front and rear suspension fitted. I have its geometry setup solely for the track.



Problem :-

The front tyres outside edges are being scrubbed away at a much higher rate than i would like, after only 4 (dry) track days, 660 miles, on a new set of Pirelli PZero Corsa track tyres, 225/45/17 - 255/40/17, they're going to wear out on the outside long before the rest of tyre has started to wear appreciably and render them useless before their time and at $1,300 a set it's not a joking matter.



Pics of the tyres :-

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/derrickb/imag...res%20009-s.jpg

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/derrickb/imag...res%20008-s.jpg



Geometry :- Degrees

FRONT

Left Right

Camber

-2.3 -2.3 (Max. achievable without fitting adjustable camber plates)

Castor :-

- 5.3 - 5.3

Toe:-

1.5

REAR

Camber

-2.0 (Max achievable is -2.4) Do you agree with the opinion that the rear camber should be set to 0.5 Deg. less than the front)?



I've read enough threads, on several forums, about race/track geometry setups for the 968 and have come the conclusion that front camber setting of -3.0 Deg. is about the norm. So i wondered if anyone else with these settings are having the same problem with the outside edges being scrubbed away prematurely? I studiously monitor and run the tyres at 34psi hot on track days.



This is making me think i need to fit adjustable camber plates, 1. to get rid of the rubber top mount and 2. so i can really increase the neg. camber to silly amounts -5/6 Deg. to counter this wearing of the outside edges of the tyres. But as no one seems to be running anymore than -3.0 Deg. i wonder if it's worth it or even feasible.



Also can the camber be adjusted quite simply, whilst at the track, by loosening the adjustable camber plates top mounts and pushing them inward to increase the neg. camber? I assumed that the bottom of the suspension strut would also have to be loosened to allow the strut to move freely at the same time? Or have it got this wrong? I also have a strut brace fitted can this still be used with adjustable top mounts?



Cheers



Del.

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[flash]

your tire wear problem is your toe setting - that is way too big - you're scrubbing badly - probably losing a lot of speed too - zero it out, or at least get it down to a tenth of a degree - your castor is too big too - bring that back to under 4 degrees



in very broad strokes of description:



toe is to keep the car from wandering on the street - on the track it is much less of an issue - zero it and you will find that your car turns in much better and your tires wear much better



castor is to return the steering to center and add stability - again, not so much of an issue on the track, and adding as much as you have make the wheel snap about pretty quickly



it will tend to hunt a bit more when you make these corrections, so be prepared - becaue of the amount of camber you have, if you take the car on the street, you may not be happy



do a comparison to stock specs from my alignment spec thread, and you will see how far off you are - camber is one thing, but the other specs are way out of whack, especialy for a track car - you've gone in the opposite direction

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[GREYGHOST]

your tire wear problem is your toe setting - that is way too big - you're scrubbing badly - probably losing a lot of speed too - zero it out, or at least get it down to a tenth of a degree - your castor is too big too - bring that back to under 4 degrees



I concur with Flash on this one. as regard on the Toe setting "0" is great for a track car, if you are running a autocross type course a 32nd out works good also.



As to the air pressure you could run more than 34psi to help turn in, I run as much as ten pounds different front to rear, the rear being lower. when you need new tyres you might want to look at going bigger front and rear. I run 245/17 in the front and 275/17 on the rear.



You should be able to get -2.7 degrees of chamber out of a stock car. try this

loosen both strut bolts to the knuckle and push on the top of the rotor there is

enough slop to gain the extra -.5 degrees in the bolts. then tighten them back

down while applying pressure to the top of the rotor. then youwill have to have the toe corrected again.



with chamber plates if you move them at the event then you have to change the

toe back. the chamber change effects the toe if you move it you have to correct

the toe. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/mad.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> lots of extra work at the event.

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[heyou]

Thanks for the input chaps <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> and you've highlighted a glaring mistake that i didn't see.



It's dawned on me now! that the front toe has been changed and that it was done the last time i had some suspension work carried out. I specifically told them NOT to change the front or rear toe settings. So i'll have a word with them about that.



Prior to that unscheduled change, the Front toe was -0.3 and the Rear 0.15. I was going to have the front toe changed to a positive setting but not until the next suspension work was to be done. When i was writing my above questions, i just copied down what was on the report sheet they gave me back from the suspension work they did without realising what i was seeing. Thanks for pointing this out to me guys otherwise i'd have never spotted it.



I understand why this has happened now, well, now that you've pointed it out to me i do <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> I'll get them to reset that toe to your suggestions.



- What toe should i run on the rear? assuming i run 0.1 up front.

- Do you agree that usually the rear camber would be set to 0.5 Deg. less than whatever the front is set to? so front camber say -2.7 and the rear then would be set to -2.2 Deg?



I'm not certain i know what an autocross course is? Either way, i only run on normal asphalt top race tracks.



many thanks again



Del.

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[flash]

take a look at this:



http://www.968forums.com/index.php?showtopic=400



then you can see the pattern, and play around from there

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[heyou]

[quote name='flash' date='Apr 19 2005, 01:12 AM']take a look at this:



http://www.968forums.com/index.php?showtopic=400



then you can see the pattern, and play around from there

[right][post="3422"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]



Thanks Flash, i had already seen your post and i understand they're not radical enough for a track focussed car. What would the settings be for what i'm trying to do?



Oh and by the way, i do use the car it on the road too and it's bloody awful infact i'd say it's dangerous if there's any hint of a wet road surface, but once at the track it's great <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/biggrin.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



What would your suggested setting be for a purely track focussed M030 968 using sticky track tyres and running only on asphalt topped race circuits :-



Assuming i can get -2º 8' 0" camber on the front (without resorting to fitting adjustable camber plates)....



What should i set the rear camber to?



Set the front toe to 0º 1' 0"



What should i set the rear toe to?



thanks in advance



Del.

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[GREYGHOST]

I'm not certain i know what an autocross course is? Either way, i only run on normal asphalt top race tracks.



many thanks again



Hi Del



I use my 968 for auto-x and a little strret driving I have a none m030 car.

My competitors and I share our set-ups so I'm aware of what works for them.

are a follows.



Front

total toe "0" to 1/16" toe out

chamber max 2.7 to 2.8 neg

castor 4.5 plus set to max on eccentric



Rear

total toe in 1/8"

chamber max 2.2 to 2.3 neg



this alignment is ment for serious max handling, not great for the street but can

be driven if careful.



you Asked about Auto-x in the States. think airport parking apron or other large areaof flat paved surface, then you set up a course with traffic cones or plyons as er call them. You have 3 or more runs though the course like a giant Slalom downhill racer in the olympics. you are timed to the thousandth of a second. if you

displace or knock over a cone it is a two second penalty added to the run. you get

to walk the course but not usually predrive it. gets pretty intense mentally. other

names are SCCA SoloII or ProSOLO, Gymkana and such.



the car set up is for fast transitions and short sweepers. most courses are taken in second gear from about 30mph to 70 plus competition can be close. I have won

events with a little as .008 of a second and lost one over two days by .001 <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/rolleyes.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



thanks Rob Falkner

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[flash]

rs 968 - why so much castor? you say it's maxed out - was this a conscious choice - that would make the car a bit more stable at extremely high speeds, and will help recenter the wheel coming out of a corner, but is probably costing you going into a corner



heyou - email me aside from here and we can talk about how your car is set up and what to do



interestingly, i am doing another alignment today, because i made soem more rear suspension mods and now have my spanky new HRE rims and monstrous tires

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[Eric_K]

I run a slightly different alignment for my race car. In Auto-X turn-in for slower corners is very important but on larger high speed tracks stability is important (at least it is for me). Toe-out will give the car a more 'darty' feel. I'm willing give up some crispness on turn in for a more stable feel. That is why I'd go with toe-in at the front. Turn 1 at Pacific Raceways is taken flat out in fifth which is something you won't see at an auto-x or on the street, at least I hope not.



There are also a million other variables that will determine what the right alignment is for you. Driving style, suspension mods, type and size of tires, the type of use, etc.



Also, I get pretty even tire wear (on the track).



Front

-3 camber

1/8" total toe-in

max castor



Rear

-2.5 camber

0 to slight toe in



Eric

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[heyou]

Thanks for the info. <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/smile.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />



My track days are held on UK race circuits, including current Formula 1 circuits. So they consist of all sorts including high speed circuits and high speed corners, so stability through the corners is more what i'm looking for.



I've been told to get "max" castor" or as much castor as the suspension will allow. And then i get told that -5º is too much ?? any thoughts on why the difference of oppion?



What's an "1/8" in real money <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/unsure.gif" class="smilie" alt="" /> do you know what that is in degees.



cheers



Del

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[GREYGHOST]

rs 968 - why so much castor? you say it's maxed out - was this a conscious choice - that would make the car a bit more stable at extremely high speeds, and will help recenter the wheel coming out of a corner, but is probably costing you going into a corner



Hi Flash



yes it is a conscious choice, castor also gives you chamber on the outside wheel. It also helps with front end dive under hard braking. I like the way

it feels. I like the car to turn hard but not be to darty or nervous in fast

transitions.



why do you feel that it is hurting me to going into the corner? just looking

for something that i might have missed.

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