[ds968]

X, with 99% of pretty much everything that has been described and discussed on this thread being completely out of my ability to comprehend there's simply nothing I can post other than ( from one fomer Ohio dude to a current one.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif[/img] ) this : amazing , impressive, fascinating and admirable to say the least.. great stuff, looks to be all top notch and seems like it will give you exactly the performance you are setting out to attain. Certainly not an enviable task from my perspective ( too much time, effort, blood, sweat and tears, so many issues to address, etc.. ) but if you enjoy it as much as you do, that's what counts [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] Bravo!

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[PorscheDude]

Mr. White is a great choice for your build.

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[xrad]

Moving forward with the project. I spoke at length with Lindsey racing today. As tyhis is to be a build all can do on a 'limited' budget, I have decided to not destroy the 3.0 intake and plan a more reasonable approach.

Method:
1) keep costs down
2) make something anyone else can do

Plan:
1) Use a turbo porsche 944 head with welded water cooling duct. (Have not decided on lifters (solid or hydraulic) or spring pressure)
2) use my 944 turbo add on bits so it is all direct bolt on
3) get a 944 turbo stainless header and exhaust
4) depending on cost, darton sleeves vs 104.5 bore
5) wossner pistons of appropriate CR
6) Correct rings
7) Carillo rods

1500 for the head
?cam?
?cam gear?
1000 for pistons
150 rings
500 header
1000 carill rods
500 extras (hoses, gaskets, etc..)
500 or less for 104.5 bore (my new fried's machine shop)

total: <5000.

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[jlm968]

Why not turbo a 16v Vario-cam?

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[flash]

i'd like to see a tracking on the costs - just now coming out of a project, i'm guessing those numbers are very optimistic, and that it will be about double

but, who knows?

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[PorscheDude]

Give RS Barn a call, I think Pete has a head on the shelf you could use.

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[Cloud9...68]

I didn't see the turbo (or the waste gate) in your list [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif[/img] . Sounds like a great project, though. The 968 world just keeps getting more and more interesting.

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[Monstrous4Banger]

Yes, stick with the 8v. The 16v doesnt care for boost(according to powerhaus, although theyll build you one), and you have to redo the intake. The 951 head has a few advantages. 1. more torque 2. 951 intake fits directly on no welding 3. 951 heads are cheapish and readily available. Only thing is welding a new water jacket to the head. Not real expensive tho. Forget sourcing a 2.7 head, rare, and youll need to modify the 951 intake to fit it. 5k is optimistic. Not impossible tho. Depends what parts you already have, how cheap you can source used ones, and what labor you do yourself. You can always sell off the extra 968 parts to fund it too.

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[flash]

i think you hit the nail on the head regarding why people use the 8V vs the 16V - cost

a 16V head, properly done, will outflow and outperform an 8V head when considering any type of forced induction - that's just physics and fluid dynamics

the obstacle is that you have to do a LOT more work to make it happen, and since nobody really seems to have a handle on making these puffed up things work truly "right", it is just beyond their means and skills

as for labor cost, i shudder to think how much money i have lost by doing my project myself - i know it's already well over $50k in just "no brainer" productions i passed on

time is not free if it takes you away from doing something that makes money, or requires you to have to buy something shiny to appease the wife, or have to take the kids on a vacation because you spent so much time in the garage...........well, you get the idea

lots to think about and consider when looking at this kind of a project - i'm all for anybody trying anything, but i'd hate to see another ill considered or half baked one - it just muddies the waters

but, there should be a decent resource of people here with ideas and experiences to help avoid some of the standard pitfalls

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[xrad]

The number <5000$ indicates how much MORE is needed. not total.

I have every part not listed above already collected and described in earlier posts. I have decided on the 8v head due to availability and cost and all the aftermarket parts including Web cam. LAbor is mainly me except for machine shop stuff. My welder just fired itself...so tack on a new mig welder...

lindsey racing will prep 951 head for 3.0l at a very reasonable cost. I almost bought a 2.7 head but then I have to do other mods.

Basically, I just want to bolt on the 951 turbo pieces around a 951 head. Head will be ported and some valve work but nothing crazy.

As far as turbo conversions, it can't get much easier once the water channel problem solved on a 951 head..

and now I won't have to weld up an intake..

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[xrad]

Some new decisions:

1) Will use 951 head, just purchased one from 89 turbo(port, polish, seats, guides , valves, seals as needed)
2) Will use 951 Real OEM hydraulic lifters (I have 32 original Porsche ones so I can probably find 8 good ones)
3) I just need to get the water cooling pathway figured out (probably send head to Lindsey racing for finishing)
4) Lindsey racing adjustable cam gear and other rollers/belts as needed
5) Block work will be done at local shop, balance shaft bearing replacement may be a PITA
6) Carrillo rods...some recommend PAuter, but i have had no issues with Carrillo
7) Wossner pistons
8) Stainless header
9) Considering american stainless valves, seats, and guides for head..will see what can be done
10) 2.7L head studs?
11) VR gasket set
12) replace all bearings/seals

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[Lear35A]

xrad, regarding item 5, there is no reason to send the block out for the balance shaft bearings. The ones that have to be pressed out are mounted in housings that come off the front of the block. You can carry them in your hand to any machine shop, and they can press the old ones out and new ones in. Will just take a few minutes. If you have access to a hydraulic press, you can do it easily. A 24 mm socket works perfectly to do this. The balance shaft bearings that are actually in the block are split bearings - no big deal to change.

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[xrad]

Thanks Lear, I had not read that far ahead in the 968 engine manual. The block will just get a bore and hone and deck work. I have a shop press so no big deal then.

Picked up a 951 1989 head. will see what shape it is in.

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[jfrahm]

How much do they charge to convert the head to the 104mm block water outlet?

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[Monstrous4Banger]

Lindsey will weld a water jacket on for a few hundred bucks or so. Less than 500 last I talked to Dave IIRC.

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[xrad]

Yep, the side mount water pathway has to be moved a few centimeters. Lindsey has a real good price for this. Mike at Lindsey racing has been extremely helpful regarding this build.

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[Grisen]

Hi, for along time too. I can also update my project: engine has been running few months, and I have had couple full days tune sessions in dyno. Now I have problem to keep boost down, and have been able to run it up to 4800rpm. At this level engine gives 300hp and almost 500nm torque, the boost is 1.2 bar.
I definetily think that goinig 16valve is right decision, and variocam is also very nice feature indeed. Engine gets to pressure side on about 2000rpm and reaches 1 bar boost at about 3500rpm. Torque curve is impressive: it reaches 300Nm at 2000 rpm and 400Nm at 2700rpm. Exhaust temperature stay at reasonable level all the way up, under 1000 degrees Celsius. Variocam seems to work best like originally planned by factory: activating at about 1600, on the other end haven`t been able to recearch yet.
On the street (very few kilometers yet), the engine is totally different compared to my previous engine (2,5 litre 8 valve turbo, basic updates about 300hp). It is so much better, there is instant power, when pushing pedal, no noticeable turbolag etc. Just have to hope engine stays in one peace.
Building intake manifold and plenum, was not that difficult, just cutting and welding aluminium.
So, I advice: go for 16 valve.

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[xrad]

I do not want the valve overlap of variocam at higher rpms with a turbo. See the valve overlap pic I posted.... Counter-productive...although intuitively it would seem to breath better. I feel that back in the day when the turbo cup series was running and 951's were routinely making 550-600hp on a 2.5l, I think that getting an extra 100-150 fly hp MAXIMUM out of my set-up will not be a problem

I could use the 16v head, but other issues like valve cooling and fixing the variocam to static, and chain/ chain tensioner pads, intake system and exhaust system and weight all went into the decision.

I now have an excellent 1989 951 head which will get worked by Lindsey some time in the near future. Stage II with increased flow, ringed, mild porting(intake only because of ceramic exhaust liners). All stock lifters (hydraulic) and MAYBE a higher lift web cam. Stock vlave size (saves money). This is not going to be a high revving engine but one for mostly street use.


I have the stock 951 exhaust. very nice unit for 99$ ebay. OR you could spend 1000 for a slightly improved aftermarket version.


cam tower (75$)
16 spare stock used lifters(25$)
head (~300$)
exhaust mani (99$)

~500$

plus all the fuel rail/injector/hoses gaskets components (500$)

head labor 1200$

so about 2500 for the head conversion.

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[Monstrous4Banger]

Yep, 8 valve hands down. Its a much more proven head under boost(edit: under higher boost levels, at lower boost levels reliability its more subjective) than the 16. Side by side dynos always show more TQ down low in the band, on the 8v. Call powerhaus theyll tell you that. Theyve probably compared more than anyone, or close to it. The 16v puts out more up top. Bottom line is the 8v is more reliable, has a broader powerband, and is cheaper. To me its more suited for the street.

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[flash]

there is no question that a 16 valve head will outperform an 8 valve head - that's basic fluid dynamics and physics

a 16 valve head will also be more reliable at the same power level as an 8 valve head, as the flow is more even, as is the heat and friction distribution

the issue is that nobody wants to make the parts needed for the 16 valve head to achieve its potential, and 8 valve head stuff is easy to come by - all of the guys out there doing kits cheap out and go with what they can get their hands on, rather than actually doing it right

so, it comes down to how much you want to spend, and how much power you want - you can get 700hp out of these engines, but you won't do it by rehashing 951 parts

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