[rhudeboye]

<!--quoteo(post=73134:date=Jun 3 2009, 10:33 AM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ Jun 3 2009, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->carl - please continue on - if there is anything any of us can do to help, we are all more than happy to do it - this is one of the most exciting things we've heard about in quite a while<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

AGREED! Carl, if you need a test car to install the stage 2 on, LMK, I'm here for you man.

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[Fox944]

i would suggest the head gasket be replaced. I replaced the Head Gasket on my naturally aspirated car with a 3 layer stainless steel gasket from Powerhaus.

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[biotechee]

Carl-

Why is your baseline NA max torque higher than your baseline NA max HP?

I thought these engines were rated at 236HP/225TQ max from the factory? Is there something special regarding your car and therefore it produces more torque than HP in NA form?

Am I missing something here?

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[Carl Fausett]

The preliminary manufacturing cost reports are in.

I will start this kit at $4,295 USD retail.

That's a lower mark-up than we will use later, but that's where we will start to get some kits out there and in the hands of users.

Not taking order yet, but I should be in a position to do so in 30 days or so...

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[biotechee]

Carl-

What, exactly, is being provided for $4295 USD?

Do you provide any warranty?

In my humble opinion, I think you will not sell as many kits as you want at your listed price. If your price were about $500 less, you would eventually see kits totaling well into double digit quantities. I fear that your price is going to push away many potential customers given the overall indicated increase in performance being what it is.

Again, just my opinion and I do not, in anyway, mean to put down the work you have done. It is a wonderful accomplishment and you are to be congratulated for your efforts. I hope you sell lots!

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[jaap]

I have a question about the dyno results; the first dyno runs showed about 254 rwhp, but the later runs (used to compare with and without variocam) only shows 232 rwhp. I understand dyno numbers are more for comparing before and after modifications but I am surprised there is so much difference between these result.

Jaap

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[ds968]

Any educated guesses as to what the longevity reduction might be for other mechanical and non mechanical componets from this ? Clutch, differential, the catalytic converter , suspension components, cooling system, etc.. ?

With a new rebuilt head , ostensibly I'm a prime candidate for bolting on an SC but have no idea if the added stress will cause the clutch to go every 30k miles, or the diff life cut in half, and so forth... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif[/img]

Not sure what else to consider and thus plan for, other than the engine itself..

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[Carl Fausett]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->What, exactly, is being provided for $4295 USD?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

With all of our kits, we supply ever nut, bolt, wire and part to install the kit. Our philosophy has always been that we want the install to be fun... and if you keep having to run to the hardware store for this and that, it isn't fun.

Complete pictorial instructions will also be included.

Our installation instructions are second-to-none in their completeness and ease of use.
Samples of our installation instructions are downloadable from our website so you can judge for yourself whether or not they are good enough for you.

Here is a link: http://www.928motorsports.com/install.html

As to price, I use cost-plus pricing, not perceived-value pricing. Our pricing is driven by what it costs to make the parts.

I hope you are wrong about the price needing to be $500 lower in order to sell. I s'pose I will know whether you are right or wrong in about 6 months. I do know that if $3800 is all 968 customers are willing to spend, the kit will be so unprofitable that we will not offer it.

Frankly, I thought we did extremely well to keep the complete kit in the low $4k area.

In contrast, maybe you should look at this 968 kit and their price instead:
http://www.speedforceracing.com/index.php?productID=736

That kit is intercooled and ours is not.... but I have a hard time explaining almost $2000 in increased costs for adding an air-to-air intercooler. Their price (and unavailability) makes ours look a little more reasonable, no?

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[firefish]

4300 USD is not pocket change. But I cannot say that it is expensive either, depending of the quality of the kit. To bad that the USD vs SEK is not in my favour at the moment...

Are you currently planning a stage 2? Is the kit in its design preventing further mods or can it be upgraded? I ask this because I know from past experiences that once you go down a route like this it can be hard to stop the modifying process. I for one am not up for spending 4300 USD on a one way street. Things like adding an intercooler, exhaust, software et.c must be something that is possible to do.

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[mrmister]

SFR kit comes with new 48lb injectors as well.

I would be very interested in your Stage 2 kit. I currently have an RSBarn Exhaust and Stage 2 chip, as do many other people. I would want to know that these will work well together. Your kit seems a bit too conservative for me at the moment, and if I am going to go the forced induction route, I want 300 at the wheels. That may be asking for trouble, but 300 at the flywheel just doesn't sound like enough.

Great work, and I can't wait for stage 2.

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[PorscheDude]

Thats my feeling. I dont care about ac.


But I think you did a great job Carl, you hit all targets and did it in short time.

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[Carl Fausett]

I forgot to mention, in answer to "what does the kit include?" that we are also replacing the dual-shoruded radiator fan (that I understand has a history of failure) with a new shoruded radiator fan.

So, as part fo the deal, you are also getting your fan replaced.

The new fan is professionaly manufactured, and on our test veghicle, has been completely successful at controlling the temps under the highest of loads we have been able to provide. It seems more-than-adequate - requiring only seconds (not minutes) of on-time.

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[flash]

the cooling system on this car is a fine balance of components - it is very easily upset - countless owners have had issues with overheating - it is probably the single largest issue these cars have - when everything is working correctly, things are fine - as soon as one component goes awry, it starts running hot

the fans themselves don't generally fail - in fact, it's pretty rare - what they do though is a very good job of drawing air across the entire radiator when the engine needs it, and increasing in speed when it needs more - this is accomplished largely by means of a shroud that fully covers the radiator, particularly at the sides where we have plastic tanks that cannot be allowed to be hotter than the rest of the radiator, and are already too hot

the radiator system in general is a poor design - it was fine for the smaller engines, but it is really too small for the amount of heat the larger engine generates under load, and particularly in hot weather - the dual speed fan was porsche's answer to the inadequacies - the fans themselves leave a bit to be desired, but the shroud is quite good

around here in the summer, it is very common for the cars to get up the the point where the high speed fan kicks in - some of us have facilitated that by changing the temp settings of our fan switches and thermostats - that really only goes so far though - we really need a bigger radiator

in 70 degree weather almost anything works - when it gets up to 90 there is a world of difference - at 100 degrees in traffic, or out on the track, we are all scrambling to find ways to cool it off

it is amazing to see how much hotter the car runs when you sit at 5k and up for 30 minutes - this car has more temp swing under maintained load than any i have owned, or any that came through my shop, including the dozens i've turbocharged and/or supercharged - it also sees the oil temps climb dramatically and stay there for a long time - i wasn't even aware of this though until i installed a gauge - the water temp gauge seemed pretty ok - the oil temp gauge told a different story - it's really pretty frustrating - it has been quite the challenge

personally i have been searching for new fans, primarily for reasons of weight, but also to increase flow, however i have not found any that fully shroud the radiator yet, and having seen too many tanks pop already, that is a deal breaker - i may have to find a way to retrofit a new fan into this shroud - i'm not looking to make things worse though - i track this car from time to time and things get pretty toasty out there

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[Carl Fausett]

You may be going the wrong way with your shrouds.

Shrouding a fan is to make it more effective at low vehicle speeds, when the air drawn through the radiator by the fan is all there is.

Unfortunately, it is also exactly the opposite of what you want at speeds of 30 MPH-and-up, where now the shrouds are a restriction to air flow through the radiator, and the fan is quite literally in the way.

I suggest a high-output fan that cover about 60% of your radiator for no and low-speed functions, and unshroud the remaining 40% of the rad to improve highway and high speed cooling.

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[flash]

not likely i'll be doing that - the air flow is controlled by the ducting and shrouds - all modern high performance cars are designed this way - full shrouds - less indirect exposure to air - even the grill areas have been reduced in size to increase the high pressure zone in front of the radiator and decrease the pressure behind it

i have done a LOT of testing and work in this engine bay to alter and improve the airflow through there, including creating new components to facilitate that - the results have great - underhood temps have dropped 40 degrees - the key has been to REDUCING the extraneous flow of all other air and focusing it all through the radiator by means of creating a low pressure zone behind it, and then directing it out

the biggest problem though is that allowing air to pass through the radiator and not from the fans causes uneven temps in the radiator - when you are sitting still you will have hot tanks and a cold center with a setup like you are talking about - when you are running fast, you will have cold spots at the edges - this up and down is the enemy of our particular unit - the flow must be even across all points of the radiator - the temps need to go up smoothly and slowly and stay within a tight margin - it may be fine in 70 degrees, but get it hot and you'll be off to the dealership for a new radiator - way too many of our members have already had that pleasure

as i said though, nearly anything will work at 70 degrees - the problems don't start really popping up until you get out on the track or in traffic at 90 plus - i can't begin to tell you how many threads we have on this site alone about overheating issues

i would get in there with some temp sensors and start taking some measurements - this is an odd duck of a car, and the cooling system is grossly inadequate - i'll be doing another set of readings soon, and would be happy to pass along the data

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[ds968]

+1 on Bob's comments re tendency of these cars to overheat way too easily. Same with 944s. If the car is a daily driver and you're in stop and go traffic for at least one hour each way ( as many of us face all the time here ), in summer afternoons at 90 degrees+ average I really want to know what effect the supercharger has on the cooling system but I don't know how you can test that short of running one on a car in those conditions for three months.. because with all due respect theories even those proven in a lab or on a dyno, don't always work exactly the way they should in real life.. way too many variables come into play.

This looks really good SO FAR - still need answers to a few questions posted here but I'm definitely interested and considering it though I will likely wait for the system to be time tested in real life conditions, so perhaps someone more courageous than I is willing to be the beta tester and if all works out fine - whoo-hoo I'll be in line to buy a kit

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[firefish]

<!--quoteo(post=73455:date=Jun 8 2009, 04:22 AM:name=ds968)-->QUOTE (ds968 @ Jun 8 2009, 04:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->+1 on Bob's comments re tendency of these cars to overheat way too easily. Same with 944s. If the car is a daily driver and you're in stop and go traffic for at least one hour each way ( as many of us face all the time here ), in summer afternoons at 90 degrees+ average I really want to know what effect the supercharger has on the cooling system but I don't know how you can test that short of running one on a car in those conditions for three months.. because with all due respect theories even those proven in a lab or on a dyno, don't always work exactly the way they should in real life.. way too many variables come into play.

This looks really good SO FAR - still need answers to a few questions posted here but I'm definitely interested and considering it though I will likely wait for the system to be time tested in real life conditions, so perhaps someone more courageous than I is willing to be the beta tester and if all works out fine - whoo-hoo I'll be in line to buy a kit<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Out of curiosity, why would a sc have an effect on engine temperature at low/idle speeds? Naturally higher output means more heat but at idle or low engine speeds boost is not much of a factor and hence the temp should be same as on a stocker (not taking into account the shroud/fan issue). And, since boost is relative to engine speed rather than exhaust flow like on a turbo, you should be able to work the pedal quite hard and still keep the temp down as long as you're not revving to much. All this referring to stop and go traffic.

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[Carl Fausett]

We have not inserted an intercooler before the radiator, and we have increased the CFM of the fan.

We did drive the car daily for two weeks in street driving and testing without a hint of even coming near over-heating. In fact, we noted it was running cooler than before.

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=73477:date=Jun 8 2009, 06:23 AM:name=Carl Fausett)-->QUOTE (Carl Fausett @ Jun 8 2009, 06:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->We did drive the car daily for two weeks in street driving and testing without a hint of even coming near over-heating. In fact, we noted it was running cooler than before.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Cool ! ( no pun intended ) [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Ok, so any thoughts about the potential ( life of ) effect on all the other mechanical parts from the added stress ( clutch, diff, etc, etc )

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[banditsc]

Do the new fans retain the same cool down after the engine is off as stock? Our fans remain running after we shut the engines off if the temp is at a certain point. This seems to help the issue of the plastic tanks from cracking.

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