[flash]

first, you would have to have at least 2 incidents of a failure of this specific airbag, in this specific application, which resulted in losses that would not have otherwise occurred, to have the basis for a class action suit. i have not heard of one such incident, let alone more than 1.



as for a label or manufacturer marking, i'll pull mine down from the attic, but porsche is very good about not having any manufacturer markings, other than their own, on parts they use in their cars. in fact, this is most frequently the only difference between a porsche part and the same part used in a different car.



as for recalls and risk assessments, that is standard practice for almost any large company. it's not about being safe as much as being safe enough to withstand the cost. it may not be right, but that's capitalism.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[williamoss]

An encouraging update on the search for the manufacturer of airbags by Porsche. Since Porsche declined in telling us who the manufacturer of airbags in our cars, I continue to search for an answer. At our local cars and coffee event on Saturday I met a very interesting and prominent person in the field of Porsche history.. HIs name is Vasek Polak. His father who recently died ran the fist dealership of Porsche was a Porsche mechanic, race car driver, and collector of cars.. His son whom I spoke with felt he might be able to come up with an answer. I will keep you informed.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[paulzebo]

Here's the back of an airbag I took of a 1994 968. I think the trademark stampings are your best bet to find the manufacture.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[bombfactory]

On a touchy subject like this, which combines massive automobile corporations, government mandated public safety issues, third (and fourth) party suppliers, possible equipment failures and the potential for litigation that could run into the billions, my guess is you won't pry any 'official' info whatsoever out of Porsche without an army of lawyers and some Jack Bauer enhanced interrogation techniques.



As for whether our airbags will work as designed 20-25 years after manufacture, that's a good question that's impossible to really answer without taking a statistically significant number of our beloved 968s, crashing them into things at various speeds and recording how the airbags behave.



I'm sure this issue keeps many auto company lawyers from sleeping well at night!

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[williamoss]

OK but is the airbag part covered as a lifetime warranty or did it have a shorter period? That would be a question that no one seems to have an answer for.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[williamoss]

Thank you Paulzebo for the pictures. I was able to see a name on the sticker that said Morton International. Yes the company that makes table salt. It seems that they also had a division that made airbags. Morton sold the division to a company called AUTOLIV in 1997. I have a call into the Engineering Development department rep. We shall see what information I can get from this person.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[MCL968]

I believe our airbags are Sodium Azide propelled, which would explain the Morton Salt connection.



Here is an explanation used for rescue personnel who may be required to extricate victims from airbag equipped vehicles:



http://www.resqmed.com/NaH3.pdf



See the section on "end of life airbags" to understand the reasons old airbags are more dangerous when deployed.



-Matt

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Tahoe968]

[quote name='MCL968' timestamp='1407345751' post='160925']

I believe our airbags are Sodium Azide propelled, which would explain the Morton Salt connection.



Here is an explanation used for rescue personnel who may be required to extricate victims from airbag equipped vehicles:



http://www.resqmed.com/NaH3.pdf



See the section on "end of life airbags" to understand the reasons old airbags are more dangerous when deployed.



-Matt

[/quote]



Wow, that sounds awful! How the heck do they put this stuff into a something that you are meant to come into contact with?

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[paulzebo]

"Wow, that sounds awful! How the heck do they put this stuff into a something that you are meant to come into contact with?"



You are not meant to come in contact with it in the raw, explosive form. Take a look at the back of the bag and you see eight, very permanent rivets. Those are meant to keep people from peeling it open and getting exposed to raw sodium azide. When detonated, the gas fills the bag and is vented out the back side of the bag, away from the occupant. Combustion is thorough with little or no unburned product. While not taking the pdf lightly, sodium azide poses little danger to passengers in the vehicle. Bags have been going off since 1974. As noted in the pdf, the CDC has zero reports of sodium azide exposure following airbag deployments.



Now if you want to see the stuff in action, pull up a launch of the space shuttle. The solid rocket boosters are packed with it as fuel. The boosters were manufactured by Morton Thiokol in Utah until Morton split it up. Propulsion systems were renamed Thiokol. My thinking would be if the spent gasses were terribly bad, we wouldn’t have people being able to watch the launch at any distance.



So if you are not hosing down the airbag with water or cutting open the inflator module, you are at no risk.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Tahoe968]

[quote name='paulzebo' timestamp='1407351710' post='160928']

"Wow, that sounds awful! How the heck do they put this stuff into a something that you are meant to come into contact with?"



You are not meant to come in contact with it in the raw, explosive form. Take a look at the back of the bag and you see eight, very permanent rivets. Those are meant to keep people from peeling it open and getting exposed to raw sodium azide. When detonated, the gas fills the bag and is vented out the back side of the bag, away from the occupant. Combustion is thorough with little or no unburned product. While not taking the pdf lightly, sodium azide poses little danger to passengers in the vehicle. Bags have been going off since 1974. As noted in the pdf, the CDC has zero reports of sodium azide exposure following airbag deployments.



Now if you want to see the stuff in action, pull up a launch of the space shuttle. The solid rocket boosters are packed with it as fuel. The boosters were manufactured by Morton Thiokol in Utah until Morton split it up. Propulsion systems were renamed Thiokol. My thinking would be if the spent gasses were terribly bad, we wouldn’t have people being able to watch the launch at any distance.



So if you are not hosing down the airbag with water or cutting open the inflator module, you are at no risk.

[/quote]





Good to know! But... if you are in a crash that requires air bags to go off, it's a bit worrisome to think that if they have to cut you out you could potentially be exposed to a serious toxin. I'll just make sure that doesn't happen ; )

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[MCL968]

I worked in a lab in San Diego where we had an Azoic Acid gas mishap (rinsed a resin column containing Sodium Azide with Hydrochloric Acid- and it blew up. Glass, gas, and resin beads everywhere). We did get some ringing headaches, but it's not at all like Cyanide. As chemicals go, it takes a fair amount to do damage.



I am more concerned that the rate of the gas expansion might be altered by the degradation of the pellets. These are 1st generation bags, and they deployed with a lot of force compared to more modern units. If that force were to be multiplied by pellet degradation, they could be counterproductive, if not lethal.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[Bulti]

And according to the article, most bags are intended to last only 10 to 15 years. I sure wish there was a way to replace them without having to completely empty my pockets.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[williamoss]

and if you read the NY Times article it is due to moisture or humidity getting past the seal which seems to be why the airbags are exploding prematurely causing the metal tin which holds the airbag to send shards of metal in all sorts of directions.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[paulzebo]

From Mercedes:



SI91.60-P-0001A Service Information: Airbag durability and functional reliability 25.11.09



MODEL all



The workshop documentation has been updated accordingly. German vehicle manufacturers have checked the durability and

functional reliability of the airbag module and have come to the conclusion that the airbag module does not need to be changed

throughout the course of the vehicle's service life.



Since you know the manufacturer was not part of TAKATA during 1992-1995, what's all the fuss about?



Petri AG was an automotive parts company based in Germany. It was acquired by the Japanese company Takata Corporation in 2000

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[paulzebo]

Reading the owners manual(something I hate to do), I came across this statement. I doubt many of us actually follow it.



   

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[williamoss]

ok BUT if you inspected the air bag every 2 years would you be able to tell if the seal has let any moisture or humidity into the container. I agree if the seal is torn or lifting off off the metal can you would know, but what if is just getting poor or letting moisture penetrate it, then what.? And as far as Petrie being bought out by Takata, we can not get any information from the Petrie group and at this time Takata will not speak to the consumer.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

i completely understand and agree with the policy of a manufacturer not talking to the public about this. the manufacturer is not responsible for the design parameters of the application. they would have no useful information about the airbag, as used in any given application. as litigious as the public is, any such conversations could easily be taken out of context and result in a lawsuit. they have to be extremely careful about exposure, and consequently must avoid any such conversation. you would need to address this issue with porsche safety design engineers

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[williamoss]

Yes but how does one have a discussion with Porsche who will not discuss the issue?

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[94SilverCab]

Whatever you do, don't buy an SLS AMG (Explosive door hinges)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMNVVHI2ZNg#t=168



Jay

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.

[flash]

william - if they won't talk to you, and you are in the correct department, then you are probably screwed. they are going to protect themselves. unless you can qualify yourself to them as an industry professional, and thereby alleviate their concerns about information getting out that could be used against them, then i think you are not going to get anywhere. the manufacturer of the part will definitely not talk to you. they merely make a part to a particular specification set forth by the individual auto manufacturer. that same part would have different results in other applications. what may last 10 years on one car may well last 15 in another.

Partial Post: Please Login or Register to read the full post.