[MC968CS]

Hi, I have noticed a few competitors running front spacers with their 17" MO30 set up. eg 7mm, 14mm and 21mm. Wondering that the advantage and disadvantage of these are? Is it safe for the extra stress on the wheels nuts etc?

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[Clem]

I don't believe you need spacers, and I personally would not run.

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[flash]

spacers are illegal in most racing, for a very good reason - they are dangerous in most applications - pca is the only place i have ever seen them allowed

realize that there are some things about spacers that are at issue:

1. the studs either need to be lengthened to make up for any threads lost by the spacer if they are thin spacers

2. if they are big spacers, a second set of lugs is required

3. you MUST use steel lugnuts with any spacer

4. the increased weight will not help you

the wider track can certainly help, but you would be much better served by getting wheels with the offset you want

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[Eric_K]

I would guess they are doing it to get a wider front track and reduce understeer. There are other reasons like for caliper/hub clearance issues, looks, etc. It is more of a band-aid/cheap fix than a proper solution - which is wheels in the size and offset you want. Like Flash said, you will need longer studs and steel lug nuts. I don't usually run spacers on track but I have in the past and never had an issue.

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[flash]

yup - plenty of guys doing it, that's for sure - scares the bejeezuz out of me though - way back before they were outlawed in scca, i watched a couple of wheels fly off and go careening around into other cars, sending one guy to a hospital bed and traction for 6 weeks

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[Eric_K]

The SCCA hasn't banned wheel spacers or at least isn't banning them now. They are allowed in Improved Touring, Touring, Spec Miata, Production, etc.

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[flash]

what????? wow! i wonder when that was lifted and why

i suspect they thought it was too hard to govern when aftermarket wheels became the norm - they would spend all day measuring offsets and nobody would get to race

i'll look into that

maybe i'll have to remind them of the problems they had before - hubs and spindles are weak enough on many of the cars out there - that's just asking for trouble when you get into the low rent districts where some guys do the cheapest things they can rather than the right things - the 968 is no exception - plenty of guys snap the stock stuff - that's why the M030 stuff is better for racing, and why other companies make hubs - i'm afraid to take my car out onto the track again for fear of snapping my hubs, because i have such large wheels up front, and they are pushed out as far as they can go

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[Cloud9...68]

Uh-oh... Mine has spacers (at least on the fronts), with aluminum lug nuts, and the car has seen many track miles. The previous owner was a very knowledgeable guy, so I'm sure he wouldn't have put spacers in if they weren't required for some sort of clearance reason. My guess is they were required to clear the '88 944 Turbo S calipers he put on the car... Well, my tracking days are on indefinite hold, so I' not going to worry too much abut it now, but this is something I need to look into before I start tracking it again...

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[flash]

first, get rid of the aluminum nuts - we all know those are bad news - pretty sure they aren't allowed in any form of competition (maybe vintage class)

regardless, they are only good for about 25 ons and offs, and then they lose the ability to hold torque - most tire shops won't torque them to spec for fear of them stripping - that should be a big clue

add leverage of additional offset, and you're asking for a failure

if the spacers are more than 4mm, get longer studs too - there is plenty of SAE data on this one

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[Cloud9...68]

Well, I took a look, and I'm baffled as to why the PO put spacers on my fronts. There is plenty of clearance between the spokes and the calipers, and anything else in there. Again, I'm just using the car for errands on weekends these days, so if this set-up has survived all the track abuse it's been put through, it's not likely to go kablooey with the light-duty use the car is seeing now. But the next time I have occasion to take the wheels off, I'll remove the spacers, and go with steel lug nuts. Thanks for the advice - another very informative thread.

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[MC968CS]

Wow, that is great feedback, very glad I asked. I will skip even considering putting any spacers on and just drive it like it was intended to be! Its not like the guys running them are faster anyway.

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[benspeeder]

I've run all kinds of spacers on many different kinds of race cars and street cars - never had a problem. Check the torque regularly. One point - depending on the stock studs you can run a small spacer - anything longer get the extra hardened race studs but I wouldn't recommend more than a 5-6mm spacer. Usually I've run them for caliper clearance or wheel clearance. Using wheels with the proper offset is the way to go.

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[Cloud9...68]

Yeah, that's why I'm baffled by my case. The spacer looks to be on the order or 5-6 mm thick, but there's well over a centimeter of clearance between the caliper and the inside of the spokes. Maybe they were put on for the looks. In any event, like I said, I'll take them out, make sure nothing rubs, and if not, I'll leave them out.

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[flash]

if you google it enough, you will find minimum number of threads for a given material that will hold torque - you will also find the spec for maximum number of cycles for a given material to retain that spec

it's been over 30 years since i learned it, and nearly 25 since i looked it up, so i am going by memory, but for lug nuts, it is at least the same length of full threads (the ends usually don't count), as the diameter, and 25 cycles for aluminum

you can measure the studs and figure out the maximum safe spacer, but it isn't very thick

by the way, anti-seize on the threads LOWERS the torque setting you apply - in other words, if you put the anti-seize on, and torque it to 96, you really haven't gotten there yet - it's not a lot, but it's there - somewhere around here i have the spec sheet on that too - i may have already posted it

this is not an area i care to screw around with - a wheel flying off is not fun (been there done that) - there isn't a whole lot of control of the car when that happens - for $20 the problem is solved - sounds like a no brainer to me

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[Cloud9...68]

Dumb question, but what's a good source for steel lug nuts? I looked on Paragon's site, but didn't find any (sure with they had a search feature, though). Is this strictly a dealer item? Or are they generic enouh to be available at any auto parts store? Strange, but I've never bought lug nuts before, as every car I've ever owned came standard with them [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

Also, I wonder if the PO installed longer studs to accomodate the spacers. If so, I guess I'll need a set of stock wheel studs as well. Are these hard to replace? Thanks.

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[flash]

i got my chrome steel ones from HRE, but try wheel enhancement - the seat type is critical though - you'll need ball seat lug nuts

i'm sure a google would turn them up too

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[craigawoodman]

Hi,

I run 21mm spacers front and rear with 18" 911 GT3 3 piece rims. The spacers push the tyres to the limits of the guard, thereby increasing track width, effectively allowing you to corner faster as the centre of gravity is lowered. Yes there are issues with caster and camber - but a good race set-up mechanic will fix these. The spacers bolt onto the hub and the rim then bolts to the spacer. The only downfall is you would need to balance the rim/tyre on the car to account for the spacer imbalance.

I race with a stripped out 968 CS which weighs close to 1250kg and my car weighs 1400 kg. My times are quicker than his. Some is possibly driver, but I believe that a lot of the time is due to the increase track widths from the spacers. It also makes the car look better.

Suggest that you only buy good quality spacers which meet the German TUV standards. These are not cheap, but heaps cheaper than an accident.

Regards,

Craig

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[flash]

yeah, with a CS you have the M030 hubs and spindles - that helps a lot with the increased loads - i'm getting nervous about snapping something with the huge stuff i am running

under bracing will help a lot with your camber issues, even more that strut tower bracing, assuming it is allowed in the class you run

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[Torbjorn968]

<!--quoteo(post=78989:date=Aug 28 2009, 12:37 PM:name=craigawoodman)-->QUOTE (craigawoodman @ Aug 28 2009, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The spacers push the tyres to the limits of the guard, thereby increasing track width, effectively allowing you to corner faster as the centre of gravity is lowered.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How can spacers lower the center of gravity? The height of the car is the same I would think and therefore the center of gravity in relation to the ground?

On the issue of spacers and Safety. Porsche studs are 14 mm spaced 130 mm, the BMW M 3 I race in endurance racing has 12 mm studs and I believe the pattern is 108 mm so there should be a margin here. If I go by rod rigging (sailboats) the breaking load of a 14 mm stud assuming 1,5 mm thread should be something like 30 000 lb (11,1 mm rod) but steel quality may not be comparable.

From what I hear the most commin failure reason is overtightening the lug nuts especially since there is a temperature expansion difference between steel and alloy so I always check torque. I am however a bit bewildered about what to think about correct torque setting when changing to a new cold wheel on a hot hub?

Source for steel lug nuts: these are the same as on the VW Transporters, changed my alloy ones to VW steel.

//T

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[Cloud9...68]

<!--quoteo(post=79963:date=Sep 13 2009, 02:42 AM:name=Torbjorn968)-->QUOTE (Torbjorn968 @ Sep 13 2009, 02:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Source for steel lug nuts: these are the same as on the VW Transporters, changed my alloy ones to VW steel.

//T<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the tip. But when you say VW Transporter, which model exactly are you referring to? Their van? Any particular series of model years? Thanks.

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