[Cloud9...68]

I saw something on 20/20 a couple of nights ago regarding the age of tires that was pretty interesting. I didn't watch the entire segment, but the message seemed to be that tires older than about six years old were at greater risk for causing loss of control (mainly due to tread separation) than newer tires. Being a typical sensationalist news magazine, I didn't see any discussion as to why exactly older tires are at risk for this problem (weakening of the adhesive, maybe), so I'm a little skeptical about the conclusions. Sort of like the old danger-of-living-near-power-lines story, which as been completely debunked. But to me, the most interesting part of the segment was the explanation of how to tell when your tires were manufactured. It's simple - look closely at your tire's sidewall, and you'll find a code that reads, for example, 4196, or 0208. This code is encased inside a rectangle. The first two numbers are the week of the year, and the last two numbers are the year, than the particular tire was made. So, 4196 means the tire was made in the 41st week of 1996, and 0208 means it was made the second week of 2008. The trick is that on some tires, the code is on the outside, and on others it's on the inside. On my 968, as well as on our 03 Chrysler Town & Country minivan, the two tires on the right hand side had the code on the outside, and the two on the driver's side had it on the inside.



So, what to do with this information? My advice would be, if you're in the market for new tires, to insist that the tires you're getting be truly new, as in less than a year (or six months, or whatever you're comfortable with) old, and use your knowledge of the code to confirm the tires' age. You're paying good money for new, high performance tires, after all, so you might as well ensure that they are really new. And if you find that the existing tires on your car are, say, over six years old (mine were all made in late '04, and I bought them in June of 06), and you've been considering repalcing them anyway, you may want to use this information to play a part in your decision.



Again, the last thing I want to do is alarm anybody, as I feel there is WAY too much of this going on in the news media already, but I thought you all would find this interesting.

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[flash]

it's true - in fact, tires are not to be sold after 3 years - most rubber components have a lifespan of as little as 5 years, those which are exposed to heat cycling being the shortest



by the way, the jury is still out on the power lines - do a quick google on "power line cancer" and you will quickly turn up a long list of studies, even very recent, that are now pointing out connections that until now were obscured by other factors



while i am not inclined to think that any one thing "causes" cancer, and it is possibly a genetic predisposition to mutation exacerbated by environmental factors, i can attest to the effects of EMF fields, as i have personally experienced short term effects while working for DOD

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[sasilverbullet]

the gurus i know won't keep tires older than six years old on their cars...



My Goodyear's i just recently purchase were over 1 year old when i put them on! Tire rack says that's not unusual as the better tires that are odd sizes tend to sit on the rack longer - and because they are not made that often by the manufacturer.

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[flash]

as an example, the tires that came on the white cab were about 5 years old



dry cracks and hardened rubber



which reminds me - i should be just about due for a change myself - time to start looking around

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[RPM]

[quote name='flash' post='52434' date='May 13 2008, 08:53 AM']as an example, the tires that came on the white cab were about 5 years old



dry cracks and hardened rubber



which reminds me - i should be just about due for a change myself - time to start looking around[/quote]



Gee Bob, your complexion looked fine when I saw you at Hershey <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/tongue.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[flash]

lol - it's all the sun

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[wiseman]

Guys,



Let me clear this issue up for all of us. Most tire mfg. warranty their tires for 5-6 years after the date of sale. There has never been any direction , that I know of to scrap tires that are on the shelf over 3 years, and I've been in the business for over 30 years. The warranty has nothing to do with when the tire was built except if the customer did not have a copy of his receipt, then the DOT date is used to establish the starting point for that customers warranty. Tires, all by themselves, don't go "bad" by sitting on a shelf in a warehouse which is why the warranties are almost always based on the sale date, not the mfg. date.

I've listed a few warranties below:



Michelin, BFGoodrich, Uniroyal: 72 Months from date of purchase.

Continental-General: 72 months from date of purchase.

Cooper: 72 months from date of purchase.

Sumitomo: Unlimited except HTR T4, HTR ZIII which is 60 months from date of Mfg.



Many lawyers have tried to take tire dealers to the cleaners for selling "old tires". They haven't won yet. Tires blow for a lot of reasons, most for road hazards, some for tire mfg. problems, not becouse they get old waiting to be bought. I will say though, that the most common blow out relating to age is on trailers and motor homes. Perfect examples of where the tires may be 5+ years old, look like new, but due to UV exposure, the elements and super heated sustained highway speeds, they blow.

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[flash]

apparently i was misinformed - it is not a DOT law, but rather a state by state one - all of the tire shops i have used have said that they were required to return tires over 3 years old - that is where i got the info - the 2 that quoted the source of their directive said it was DOT - they were not what i would call the most educated though, so obviously i should have checked that source



this does not change the danger though - it is a chemical process that cannot be avoided - the US tire industry though will have a fit if reasonable laws ever get put into place - they have been allowed to sell old tires, and even used tires for a very long time - it would hurt them to the point of bankruptcy in many cases, if they were forced to adhere to safe laws - the economics are huge, as are the environmental concerns - this is clearly one where dollars won out over safety



i'm not picking on the industry, and i'm certainly not teeing off on anybody in particular - but once again we are clearly at the mercy of those who choose to make a buck, rather than sell what is safe and discard what is not - yes, it would push prices through the roof - but, tell your child why their mom or brother or sister was killed when a tire blew and flipped mom's minivan, because the guy at the tire shop said, it was "Ok, because she only drives around town" and you might think twice about it - what exactly is the price of that?



however, there was a warning issued by the Rubber Manufacturer's Association, that indicates 10 years - there is also a federal law about liability regarding the failure of the seller or distributor or a predecessor in the commercial chain of distribution to adequately warn the consumer about the safety of of the product - this one is the open door for litigation, and it has resulted in awards here in california



the british have taken a lot more steps toward controlling this hazard - the BRMA determined that the life expectancy was 10 years in ideal conditions, but that those conditions are rarely met, and that environmental conditions like exposure to sunlight, coastal climates, as well as poor storage and infrequent use accelerate the aging process



so have the germans - their conclusion was "Consumers should not drive on tires that are six or more years old, regardless of tread depth particularly tires stored for an extended period of time." they also found that a tire that was 9 years old was 8 times more likely to fail than a tire that was 2 years old



auto manufacturers are also putting these warnings into their literature



as for aging on the shelf, yes they do, and one should be aware of that - however, there are some tires that age better than others - as an example, a cap ply (nylon overlay) will slow down the process - there is no real way for the consumer to know which is which though



this is one that will come to light more and more as the cars go faster and faster, corner better, and drivers continue to crash them at an alarming rate - if tire technology does not keep pace, we will see a lot of issues come to light



doing a bit of quick googling, here is something i found in Trial:



To understand tire aging and what tread separation is, you need to know how a tire is made. A steel-belted radial tire has several components, including an inner liner, two polyester body plies, two steel belts, two bead reinforcing strips, the sidewall rubber, and a tread.



After these components are assembled in their "green" (uncured) state, the tire is loaded into a tire press for vulcanization. In this process, the tire is subjected to extreme heat and pressure, which cause the components to fuse into a single structure--a completed tire. In a typical tread separation, the top steel belt and tread become detached from the rest of the tire.



With age, tire components dry out, causing the adhesion between them to break down. The process of oxidation hastens the deterioration: It occurs as air permeates the inner liner, a thin rubber lining that coats the inside of the tire and acts as a robe. The internal oxidative degradation caused by air permeation occurs over time, regardless of whether the tire is used. Current studies suggest that in-use tires age no more than those stored as spares on the same vehicle. In other words, age degradation occurs regardless of the mechanical fatigue that a tire undergoes.



That rubber deteriorates with age has been recognized since the production of synthetic rubber began in the 1930s. More recent scientific publications have noted that natural rubber is particularly susceptible to oxidative degradation. The tire industry is acutely aware of the problem and has routinely performed lab tests under various conditions, usually using elevated temperatures and oxygen inflation.



To slow the oxidative aging process, manufacturers use combinations of antidegradant chemicals and other construction methods. Inherent in the consumer's expectation when purchasing a tire is that its "fatigue life"--the period in which its components will hold together--should always exceed the tread life by some safety margin for all reasonably foreseeable service conditions.

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[wiseman]

No arguement here on the 9 year life cycle. I've never owned a set of tires for 9 years on any car. Even my 70 442 W-30 got new tires every 2 years. It does continue to amaze me that Independant Tire dealers continue to sell "used tires". With all of the publication that has been written on the subject and the inherent financial risk, it continues. Flash, I get every tire publication that written and work for a $multi-billion company that deals in nothing but tires. All kinds from a wheelbarrel to Terex. What I can say is that if all of us who owned cars and SUV's/CUV's would keep our vehicles aligned, check our air pressures once a month , had our tires inspected by a reputable tire dealer and replaced our tires at 4/32'nds, the existing tire warranties would be sufficient for all of our needs. God gave us all brains also. With the Firestone recall of 2000-2001, and the associated tire failure and resulted rollover problem with the Ford Explorer, the public has been informed, in spades. Yet drive into any marina in the heat states of Texas and Florida in dead summer and check out the condition of the tires on these vehicles. You'd be amazed. Lets make sure we put the blame where it really belongs.

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[flash]

i agree - put it on the owner who fails to acknowledge the reality of physics and chemistry, and instead lets his wallet determine the safety level - 3 years is getting old - 5 years is toast - forget mileage - forget tread wear - think about elasticity and adhesion of compounds - it's pretty simple - you can actually feel the difference between an old tire and a new one, even with the same tread wear - it stuns me how this all gets ignored by so many owners and drivers - i must assume that they actually don't know about it - regardless of the ford issue, it seems obvious that they don't make the connections



that being said, manufacturers and dealers should also be forced to recognize this, warn their customers, and sell only those things that are safe



but, then there go the economics again - if they did do this, manufacturers would hate having to deal with the tires, tires would be a LOT more expensive, and the customers would tend to run them in a less than safe manner for a lot longer - dealers would see fewer sales



no easy answer - that's for sure



which reminds me - i need to go and get covers for my trailer tires - they are now a year old, and who knows how long they were sitting around before i bought the trailer - hmmmm - this may give me an excuse to replace the wheels on it with something i like better - lol

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[porsche]

Porsche recommends replacing tires every 5 years (regardless of wear).



I view even the most expensive tires as "cheap" insurance.



Every driver's life and safety is worth the price of a quality set of "fresh" tires.



Porsche

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[flash]

yeah - i applaud michelin for their ad campaign - it was very focused on that

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[wiseman]

Having been brought up in Akron , Oh. where every member of my family worked for the rubber co's, me included, and having worked for and sold Michelin Tires, I can say that I trust that company probably more than any other. Thats why when they say that the tires are warranted for 6 years past the date of sale , knowing that they could be 2 years old when that happens, I'm pretty sure they're safe. In fact, I just got the excess inventory list today from Michelin and it has some 2055516 SXMXX3's on that list. Those have been discontinued for 4-5 years? I wouldn't buy them...........but I assure you someone will and thats a Porsche fitment and their former UHP tire. As you say, we could discuss the merits of "aged" tires all day long, but you gotta show some common sense. After 5 , maybe 6 years, its gotta go.

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[rxter]

switching topics a bit here, but related to tire wear.



Alignment. I lived in PA for a number of years back in the good old days of 2x per year safety inspections (you read that right - every 6 months). Invariably there would be 2 things wrong with my car (and everyone else's far as I remember). Alignment was off and the headlights weren't pointing correctly. So the mech had you every time and I put up with it (along with everyone else as I recall).



After all that I became really soured on alignments as just so much crap. I get a coupon at the local Discount Tires for an alignment shop. I've bought something like 6 sets of tires there in the past 2 years and guess what - I get a coupon and a recommendation to get a front-end alignment every single time.



Is there anything really to this alignment stuff? I mean I know that the wheels need to be pointed straight, but I don't race and so other than a little odd tire wear does it really make any difference?

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[wiseman]

Yea, it matters. But having said that..........it matters what you drive also. In your case it would have paid to get a "lifetime alignment" with a set of tires. Although even with that, if they found a worn part and you decided not to have it replaced, you just voided the lifetime alignment. With the price of some tires going from $80 to $280/tire,improper alignment will chop up a set of tires pretty fast and you car will sound like you have a set of mud-terrains on it. If you have a minivan and it takes a 205/70-15 for $45, you could rotate the tires and probably get away with it for a few years.

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[flash]

it sounds like you have suspension issues - when you were here talking about the leak, i wondered how long that would be before we had this conversation in more detail



you could be getting a new alignment every day, but if you have a worn castor block, it won't matter - leaks take out suspension components very fast on this car - get that straightened out, and then get a good alignment (not just a toe set like way too many shops do)



ring me up and we can work this out

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[banditsc]

Just posted on the PCA site is the link to that program, interesting viewing. I just went down and looked at my tires and I'm ok. I know the tires on the car I just picked a few weeks ago were dated back to 1999, which I promptly got rid of.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4826897

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