[firefish]

I have tried the search function but, despite learning lots of other things, I have not been able to find an answer to my question.

My 968 sees some track time and the car has had troubles with rotors warping. I am now planning to convert the standard front brakes to m030 specs, mostly because I get these rotors for free through sponsorship. But what is involved, besides swapping rotors, calipers and lines?

Will the m030 rotors fit the standard hub?

Will the m030 caliper fit the standard spindle?

I know that the m030 hub is stronger than the standard piece but for now I would like to keep the cost to a minimum and go billet once they split.

If I have to replace the hub and spindle, where should I look for parts (will be needing calipers too)?

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[wjk_glynn]

FYI... http://www.weissach.net/968_M030-Option.html

Karl.

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[wjk_glynn]

<!--quoteo(post=71800:date=May 12 2009, 03:27 AM:name=firefish)-->QUOTE (firefish @ May 12 2009, 03:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I have tried the search function but, despite learning lots of other things, I have not been able to find an answer to my question.

My 968 sees some track time and the car has had troubles with rotors warping. I am now planning to convert the standard front brakes to m030 specs, mostly because I get these rotors for free through sponsorship. But what is involved, besides swapping rotors, calipers and lines?

Will the m030 rotors fit the standard hub?

Will the m030 caliper fit the standard spindle?

I know that the m030 hub is stronger than the standard piece but for now I would like to keep the cost to a minimum and go billet once they split.

If I have to replace the hub and spindle, where should I look for parts (will be needing calipers too)?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

As regards your specific questions...

1) The M030 rotors will fit the standard hub (but the standard calipers won't work with them)
2) M030 calipers require aftermarket adaptors to fit the standard hub.

But you might want to consider a move to <b>big-blacks</b>/<b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><!--/coloro-->big-reds<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--></b>. Because of their popularity, the parts are often cheaper than the M030 parts and provide even better brake performance. Tom Pultz has a good webpage on brake upgrades for his 944S2 (which is also applicable to the 968). See: http://www.944s2.com/brakes/brakes.htm

I took Tom's notes and made a table of the parts at http://www.weissach.net/944S2_BrakeUpgrade.html (note the price data is more than 6-years old and ProSpeed no longer offers brake adapters, but you can get those elsewhere)

Karl.

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[Gotter]

<!--quoteo(post=71802:date=May 12 2009, 05:24 AM:name=wjk_glynn)-->QUOTE (wjk_glynn @ May 12 2009, 05:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->FYI... http://www.weissach.net/968_M030-Option.html

Karl.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


From the site: "The M030 option was not available on the 968 Cabriolet as Porsche thought it lacked sufficient structural rigidity."

Is this true, or have others found this to not be the case?

....not that I have the cash flow right now to DO the conversion.... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif[/img]

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[flash]

no - that was not the reason - it was more of a marketing decision - they merely wanted the distinction between what they thought were "fun" and " serious" - just like the camaro, where you could not get a manual trans AND the HO engine together in the convertible, high performance options are not generally offered in convertibles - this is a very common thing

however, they did feel that the M030 suspension, which is jittery on a good day in the hardtop, was too much of a compromise on the ride quality on the cab

there are ways around this now for both suspension upgrade and chassis rigidity improvement

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[firefish]

Well, big reds or blacks would at least look the part and it is as you said a quite common mod. So common in fact that there should be a surplus of M030 calipers out there (or at least that was my plan anyway...).

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[firefish]

<!--quoteo(post=71821:date=May 12 2009, 05:34 PM:name=firefish)-->QUOTE (firefish @ May 12 2009, 05:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Well, big reds or blacks would at least look the part and it is as you said a quite common mod. So common in fact that there should be a surplus of M030 calipers out there (or at least that was my plan anyway...).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I have found a set of 928 GTS calipers and 911 turbo drilled rotors that came off a 951. These should fit my car right? But I'll need adapters for the calipers, new hoses and another valve (5/33?), am I correct.

What would a decent price for said calipers and rotors be? They are used, some 3000 miles, but look ok.

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[wjk_glynn]

<!--quoteo(post=71804:date=May 12 2009, 05:35 AM:name=J.C.)-->QUOTE (J.C. @ May 12 2009, 05:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->From the site: "The M030 option was not available on the 968 Cabriolet as Porsche thought it lacked sufficient structural rigidity."

Is this true, or have others found this to not be the case?
...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--quoteo(post=71806:date=May 12 2009, 06:56 AM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ May 12 2009, 06:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->no - that was not the reason - it was more of a marketing decision...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It's been years since I put that page together, but I'm 99% sure that I wouldn't have put that sentence in there unless I had a specific reference/quote to support it... which of course I can't find right now [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif[/img]

But if recollection serves, there was an interview by someone at Porsche (on the engineering side) in one of the English magazines and he said the Cab wasn't considered stiff enough to warrant the M030 option.

If I can dig it up, I'll let you know.

Karl.

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[flash]

well, even if he said that, he would be wrong - the chassis rigidity has nothing to do with the suspension being able to be used - the entire problem would be ride quality - the already jittery M030 shocks and struts would just shake the cab more

proof of this is how many guys are successfully running the koni yellows with stiffer springs

but, as i said, rework the chassis (which is surprisingly simple now) and you can run it without issue

that being said, there is a LOT better stuff out there now that doesn't have the inferior ride quality issues the M030 has, so it's rather moot

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[ds968]

<!--quoteo(post=71901:date=May 13 2009, 07:42 PM:name=flash)-->QUOTE (flash @ May 13 2009, 07:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->that being said, there is a LOT better stuff out there now that doesn't have the inferior ride quality issues the M030 has, so it's rather moot<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

May be so, but you won't find or even be able to custom build anything close to the quality of the M030 spindles..
I'd love those but not sure I want to spend close to $2k for just the part and when you add in labor .. yikes.

Jittery ride in an M030 coupe ?! Not in Trevor's car which has under 60k miles on it, anyway. That thing is solid !
Sure, I think my suspension set up performs considerable better ( that's just my opinion ) but that ride was pretty
damn amazing.

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[flash]

i absolutely agree about the spindles, and even the brakes are good - i was frankly focused on the shocks and struts

if you think the M030 is smooth, you need to take it on a rougher road - it will shake you stupid - the front isn't too bad, but the rear is a mess - one good off camber bump and the back end hops

but, then that is why we put hydraulic shocks in your car and not gas

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[Fox944]

i agree with the jittery/bouncy ride for the M030 Coupe's. Removing the rear coils helps, but its still very bouncy compared to even my car. I've driven a couple M030 Cars. As a street car or daily driver, i would not recommend one personally....especially if you live in the New York Metro area. My suspension set-up is a lot more compliant/forgiving/progressive then a stock M030 suspension.

I also would not like the M030 rear set-up when i'm running my car down the 1/4. I would imagine it would create to much wheel hop., especially if the coils are on.

However, i think the M030 set-up is wonderfull for an autocross car.

For ref. my car is running the following set-up;

-Koni Yellows F/R
-H&R Springs F
-OEM rear ride hieght adjustment (lowest setting)
-M030 Sway bar F
-Lindsey Racing Sway bar R
-Design 1 Lower chassis brace
-Design 1 Strut brace
-Welmeister Rear Brace/harness bar
-Custom Alignment

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[firefish]

M030 calipers and 911 turbo rotors are now bought. Big reds would have been sweet but too pricey. I don't really need more stopping power, my problem has been with getting rid of the heat. The bigger rotors should be able to assimilate more energy as well as getting rid of the heat faster (energy vs area vs time) so I hope I'm good. Unless the rotors crack (since they are drilled) but at least they look good.

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[wmuldowney]

FireFish,

post a few notes on how this goes for you, I have been following this thread as it is on my "todo" list. Was going to do this after the suspension and then the StageII set up, however might squeeze this inbetween as it might be nice to be able to stop better before I start driving faster LOL!

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[flash]

quick and easy answer to that one is "if you ever wish you had more brakes, then you probably need them"

when i set up somebody's car, i always get the brakes done before adding any power - i know everybody wants to go faster, but they generally don't realize that stopping is more important - failure to do so, when you are zinging along with your new power, and stuff it into a tree, is a quick way to ruin the car and all of your fun

but then, a mushy suspension will do much the same, so i think you are on the right track if your oem brakes are in good shape

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[wmuldowney]

Car just had complete brake job, the feel fine now but as I add more power definitely want to add more braking.

My brother in law works for a major (non dealership) European Mechanic so I can get most parts that I need locally (some even discounted [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] ), so that helps huge.

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[firefish]

<!--quoteo(post=72812:date=May 30 2009, 01:35 AM:name=wmuldowney)-->QUOTE (wmuldowney @ May 30 2009, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Car just had complete brake job, the feel fine now but as I add more power definitely want to add more braking.

My brother in law works for a major (non dealership) European Mechanic so I can get most parts that I need locally (some even discounted [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] ), so that helps huge.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


A little update.

First of all, to my disappointment, the rotors that I got with the S4 calipers are not as big as I had hoped (seller said 322x32) but they're "only" 304x32. Non cross drilled so perhaps from a 928 S4 or aftermarket ones. Maybe it isn't so bad afterall, it is quite easy to space the calipers outwards should I need bigger rotors - for know I'll enjoy the lower weight. The cooling ducts, or whatever the word is, are curved on the bigger rotors and it is my belief that that design allows for more air to be pulled through, thus improving cooling.

The calipers are the early style S4 caliper, not the one you'd find on a stock M030 equipped 968. The only differences are the dust seals from what I can tell. The newer type has the common style rubber boot where as my calipers have a ring type seal that probably does a worse job in keeping the crap out but in return is much more resistent to heat (better heat transfer to the caliper) and since this car is a summer only car (road and track) and I do not mind regular cleaning I am happy. I have ordered one new 44 mm piston since one was damaged and new trickstuff pads.

Keep in mind that these calipers have different seals and pistons than the later versions so if you get a set of these that needs to be rebuilded, make sure that you get the right parts. I don't know about Porsche in the US but here in Europe they have lowered the price quite much on parts for these calipers so make sure that your parts supplier has the right pricing.

As for the rotors they seem to center via the two screws that you screw in to the hub. The holes are located in the same position on both rotors. There are marks visible on the old rotors and on the hub (non M030) where you can see that the rotor hat has been in contact with, and thus also centered on, the hub. The fit was not what I would call snug so I cannot judge on the importance of this. The bigger rotors will not use this function as the hats are bigger and I am not sure if that is a problem or not. They should center perfectly via the two screws but since the standard hub is known to split maybe hat contact with the hub is a feature that supports the hub and that I, unless I tool up some spacer rings, will add extra stress on the hubs causing them to fail. Input on this would be nice.

I will keep you updated.

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[firefish]

Brake swap complete!

Finding the correct adapters for the calipers turned out to be quite a task but eventually I got it right. Having standard spindles has the advantage that you are able to move the calipers with spacers in all directions to accomodate different rotors which is good. On the other hand they are supposedly weaker than the M030 spindle.

I am now running 928 S4 brakes up front and standard brakes in the rear (all solid rotors) with a 928 (5/33) proportioning valve. Pads are Trickstuff (their endurance pads) with a helluva bite, downside being that they are a bit noisy and very very dusty. In addition to this I have also fitted stainless hoses from RS Barn (superior quality btw). Toyo R888's allows me to use the brakes too.

With this combo I find the braking significantly improved as compared to the standard brakes. It is a little looser in the rear with this setup as compared to the stock brakes (with same type of pads and R888). I think it's better this way.

The only downside is that the pedal travel is greater now, due to the greater piston area in the new calipers. I may still have some air trapped in there but I'm not sure, I'll rebleed it again to be sure. Didn't the M030 and the standard cars share the same master cylinder?

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