[earossi]

As we all know these cars are beginning to leak due to age, if for no other reason. I have gone though a long period of chasing leaks, and though I have repaired a lot of them, I still have a major leaker that I cannot see to locate. So, I am assuming that it is the oil pan gasket. To date, I have resealed the entire front of the engine and have replaced the rear seal on the lower balance shaft cover. The upper seal (drivers side) seems to be ok, but I am not certain since I can't really see it, though the oil leak seems to be dripping down the front of the oil pan. I also replaced the valve cover gasket when I changed out the cam chain and did the sprocket inspection.

So, I have researched all the search topics on dropping the oil pan, but I have one question that I can't find an answer to. I have a ramp type lift for my car. So, can I drop tne cross member with the weight of the car on its wheels on the ramp, or do I need to jack up the car. This may seem like a fairly stupid question, but I am concerned that when I unbolt the crossmember that the suspension on the car could spread outward, which would be a problem.

One more question is approximately how much does the cross member weigh? I will have the weight of the engine held by a hoist, but I am concerned that with the car in the air, can I safely handle the weight of the crossmember while I remove the final bolts as I stand under the car?

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[Johannvb]

I am not 100% sure on this, but i believe you should not have any weight one the wheels when removing the cross member. The cross member is a mounting point for the A-arms.

- First of all, I think that you will struggle removing the bolts for the A-arms if there is weight on the wheels.
- Secondly, if you were to get them off I also think there is a possibility of the suspension collapsing.

With regards to weight, I expect you should be able to handle the cross member on your own, it's aluminum and I would expect it to weigh about 10Kg.

I have never done this before, so I might be completely wrong...

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[Cloud9...68]

Johann,

For not having done the job, your assessment is amazingly accurate. Removing the oil pan on these cars, while not requiring a great deal of skill, is a MAJOR PAIN. You have to remove everything but the carpet (I think you can leave the paint on [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif[/img] ). Here's a write-up I got several years ago for replacing the motor mounts which I followed successfully:

Parts Required:
Floor Jack
4 Jack Stands
13mm, 19mm open and closed end wrench
10mm, 13mm, 17mm, 19mm Deep end sockets.
3/8 inch ratchet
3/8 inch torque wrench
3/8 extension
Phillips Screwdriver
Prybar
Lug Wrench for Wheels
Start by jacking car up all around by lifting car at middle jacking point. This will lift the car at both ends on the same side of the car. Install floor jacks under the front mounting point and under the Torque Tube Bracket by the trailing arm. Do this procedure for both sides and jack your car enough to provide yourself enough space to slide under the car to perform this task.

Remove front Wheels
Remove Underbody cover using 10mm socket
Undo sway bar nuts holding it to Control Arm using 17mm socket
Undo 13mm nuts and bolts holding the inner sway bar bushing brackets
Lower brackets by removing 13mm bolts to body and remove sway bar
Remove 19mm nuts and bolts holding the control arm to the crossmember
Remove 17mm bolts holding the Caster Blocks to the body and Control Arms and move Control Arms out of the way.
Loosen 19mm bolts holding crossmember to the body. Do not undo them completely.
Remove nut holding the engine mount to crossmember using 17mm socket
Remove any heat shields covering engine mounts using 10mm socket
Remove bolts holding the engine mounts to motor mounts using stubby 13mm wrench
Place jack with suitable padding/wooden block under oil pan and lift engine slightly.
Pry motormounts off and install new motor mounts.
Lower engine and install 13mm bolts back on between motormounts and engine mounts.
Tighten nut holding motormount.
Installation is reverse.
Tightening torques:
Control Arm to Cross Member: 48 lb-ft
Control Arm to Body: 34 lb-ft
Cross Member to Body: 63 lb-ft
Swaybar to Control Arm: 18 lb-ft
Wheels: 96 lb-ft

Earossi, as you can see, you have to remove the control arms, for which you have to remove the front wheels, so you need to use a floor jack as opposed to ramps to get the car in the air. In addition, since you're removing the oil pan, you obviously can't support the engine from the bottom as stated in the above write-up, so you'll need a hoist of some kind to support it from the top.

It took me the better part of a weekend, iirc, to do the mounts (Porschedude could probably do the job in half an hour [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] ). By far the most time consuming part was getting the engine to line back up to allow the engine mounts to go back into their positions. This step took me a good three hours, with lots of grunting, colorful language, and finally resorting to calling a neighbor over to help me.

Also, rumor has it that you need to do an alignment after the job, although the guy who I took it to (the owner of highly respected local shop) told me it wasn't off at all, so I'm a little skeptical about this.

If you're going to go to all this trouoble to remove the pan, I would definitely replace the rod bearings, motor mounts, and possibly the steering mounts while you're in there. But before taking on this formidable task, have you tried simply tightening the pan bolts? This reduced my leaks to the point where they're now barely a trickle. Good luck!

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[PorscheDude]

Lol thanks for the vote of confidence!!!
Unfortunatley for me, it took allot longer.

Nice write up. As stated, not so much skill needed, just lots of time.
You may end up using a few choice words along the way...

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[JWahlsten]

Concur with the last statement. If you're going in there, and you plan on doing any track events, doing the rod bearings is a great idea. This would also be your best time to accomplish the motor mounts, and you'll have most of the stuff out of the way to do the gasket for the oil cooler and it's o-rings.

This while you're in there sickness is a killer ...

DO NOT try this on ramps.

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[flash]

it would be blind luck if you got it back together without needing an alignment - the castor blocks have to come down, and that throws it out - if you magically got it back into exactly the same spot, taking into account the slop in the cross member mounting holes, you need to run out and buy a lottery ticket

that being said, the alignment issue goes to how close you want it to be - most shops will say plus or minus 1/4 degree is ok - i can't get way with that on my car, but a rubber bushing car might - the big thing though is that most shops don't check castor, which is what would be thrown off by this - you would be shocked at how many only check camber and toe (some only toe)

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[Cloud9...68]

Darn! I should have bought that lottery ticket when I had the chance. My shop did a very thorough 4-wheel alignment and corner balance that required an instrument which no other shop in Austin has (I checked with other reputable shops in town, and none wanted to take on this car), which took about six hours. They set camber, castor, and toe. I guess I just got very lucky. But I'm not really sure how far it may have been off when I took it to them. I'm only basing this on the owner's response to my question of how far off it was, which was "Not too bad." So it was really pretty subjective.

In any event, what Flash says makes sense. Count on doing an alignment when you get everything back together. But I would check around first to make sure there's someone close to you who is set up to do at least a front end aligment on your car, and then budget the cost into the job.

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[flash]

no worries - i've gotten lucky before on things too - it happens

definitely be prepared - the P221 tool and the thin 36mm and 24mm wrenches are a must, and a good indicator as to the ability of the shop to get it right

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[earossi]

I've never had luck with tightening bolts to get an old gasket to reseal. I did check to see if any of the bolts were loose, and as you can guess - none were.

We're going to start the job this weekend and take our time, since it is winter here in Chicago and I won't be driving the 968 until the winter salt is gone (about 3 more months).

So, "while I'm in there", I'll do the engine mounts and the bushings on the sway bar which have had years and years of power steering fluid dripping on them (though that problem was easy to fix).

I'll also clean everything up before going back together.

Does anyone do the A-arms bushings at this point of disassembly? The car has 90K on the original suspension.

I'll try to take some pictures as the job goes along.

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[flash]

they are rubber, and just like anything else rubber, they age, crack, harden, etc - most cars at that mileage are due - take a good look at them and look for play, slop, cracking, damage, etc

the front ones area royal pain to remove - the castor blocks at the rear are quite easy

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[Cloud9...68]

While you have the oil pan off, are you going to replace the connecting rod bearings? They're not terribly expensive, so I would urge you to replace them, since they are something of a known weak spot on these engines. Keep us posted on the status of your project. I hope it takes care of your leaks.

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[AJG]

There's a possibility that the hydraulic cam belt tensioner seal is weeping. If oil is leaking on to the belts it will shorten their life. A new tensioner and belt is the only cure.

AJG

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[kwikt]

I'm in the same boat. I'll be tackling the oil pan/rod bearing job as soon as my son decides to bring the car home from college. BTW... I purchased the Harbour Freight engine supporter for $39 on sale and with a 20% coupon. Anyone use this?

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[Cloud9...68]

I hope it's a spacious boat, because I plan to do the same thing in the fall. My plan is to first do the bottom of the engine, and then pull the head to have it rebuilt, and of course replace all the gaskets. For the bottom end work, what "while-you're-in-there" things are recommended? My main objective is to replace the rod bearings, what with all the talk of the weaker early rods, plus my oil pressure at idle on a hot day is a tad lower than I'd like to see it. I'll also pull the power steering pump, which has recently developed a slight leak, and either rebuild or replace it. What about the oil pick-up tube? Should I replace it, or reinforce it, as I've seen some people do? I also want to replace the rear main seal, and I think I'll replace the clutch disk while I'm in there. It isn't displaying any symptoms, but it's the original one, as far as I know. Does having the pan off make this job any easier? And I'm thinking of taking the cross-member to a machine shop to convert it to a 3-piece removable one like Lindsey Racing has, which will make future bottom-end work vastly easier. Also, I'm thinking about rebuilding the ball joints, since I'll have the control arms off

As far as the Harbor Freight engine supporter, I have no idea how it works, although I'm sure it's a good way to go, because I've seen this type of support recommended by many sources. What exactly does it attach to to support the weight of the engine from the top? You definitely got yours for a great price. I was thinking of buying one used on Craisglist, then selling it when I'm done, but for a new one for just over $30, you can't go wrong. I thought they were over $100, even from Harbor Freight. Hopefully those of us planning to do this job can all learn from each others' experiences.

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[Ryan]

I think the Harbor Freight support is the type that goes into the hood channel and supports the motor and not the crane type if that is what you are thinking.

Still a great deal and a tool that should work fine.

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[kwikt]

That is correct. It sits in the strut housing area or fender seam area and then supports the engine with 2 chains. I've seen others build this support out of wood 4x4's and eye bolts, but for the price I could not pass it up. It seems like it should work..... we'll see!

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[Cloud9...68]

OK, thanks, I'm starting to picture it...

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[earossi]

It's been a while since I started this topic; so, thought I might bring you up to date and discuss an issue I ran into. First of all, I have not yet pulled the oil pan to replace the gasket. In the process of looking for the oil leak, it appeared to not so much be originating from the oil pan as it was coming from around the lower balance shaft cover. So, I elected to pull the cover to replace the rear seal and whatever else might be leaking. What a job! Getting the cover off was fairly straight forward, though it required that the timing and balance shaft belts be removed along with all the belt covers, and the power steering and alternator tensioning systems. Lots of wrench turning. Finally, I was able to pull the balance shaft seal housing and cover off the motor. Then I was surprised to find that the balance shaft does not run on sleeve bearing inserts, but rather runs directly on a machined surface in the engine block and on the blance shaft cover!



The real issue was putting it all back together after changing out the rear seal. Problem is that there is no way to secure the balance shaft in its bearing saddles on the motor so that you can install the cover which would then "capture" the shaft. Finally had to rube goldberg the thing with wire to hold the balance shaft to the cover while installing the cover on the engine. Once the shaft was captured between the engine and the cover, I was able to pull the wire out while "praying" that pulling the wire would not damage the sealant that had been placed on the cover to seal up to the engine. This is one of those jobs that requires about 4 hands in a space that will only allow 2 hands to work. There has got to be an easier way! Anyone come up with a more professional way to do this job short of pulling the engine?



I'll admit that the job was harder because I elected to not remove the exhaust header which interfered with the cover installation. Perhaps I should have removed the header.



Then I also screwed up by torquing the cover plate into place and THEN installing the front seal housing with a new O-ring. I should have installed the housing BEFORE torquing down the cover plate bolts. As a consequence, the O-ring groove must be mis-aligned between the engine block and the cover plate, because I now have a leak around the O-ring in the seal housing.



If anyone has done this job before, could you provide the tricks to get it right? I will have to disassemble the whole thing and re-do the job. But, I want to be assured that I do it correctly the next time.

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[earossi]

It was last November that I posted about the PITA job of resealing the lower balance shaft cover and housing. It's now February and I still have not solved my oil leak issue; so, I am going to repeat the entire process of pulling the balance shaft cover and seal assembly and resealing them. I just posted my plea for help on this forum, obviously forgetting about this thread that I started a number of months ago! Sorry about that. If I can solve the leak issue with the balance shaft, I may/may not move forward with the oil pan gasket. Anybody have any words of wisdom on the "correct" way to do this re-seal job?

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[Cloud9...68]

I'm not sure it will help you a whole lot, but I just pulled the engine out of my car, and will among other things be replacing all of the seals, including the lower balance shaft. I realize doing this with the engine out of the car is "cheating", big time, but I'll let you know if I run across any tips that might be useful for doing the job with the engine still in the car. It definitely looked like taking the crossmember out would make the job much easier, but that is also a royal pain, and requires an alignment afterward, unless you happen to have a three-piece crossmember, which I'm going to convert mine to.

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