[Cloud9...68]

As long as I have the crossmember off, I'm looking for advice for other things to replace/clean/adjust/inspect. I've heard this is a good time to do the power steering hoses, and I'm planning on replacing the oxygen sensor as long as I have the car up on jack stands, and was wondering what else would make sense to do at the same time. Flash recommended several other things in response to the same post on 968.net, including upgrading the crossmemebr itself to one made by Lindsey Racing (anybody have any experience/comments with this?). Thanks.

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[Greimann]

Probably changing the oil pan gasket and sway bar bushings would be prudent as long as you have that area disassembled. While the oil pan is off, inspect the oil pickup tube very carefully. This is known to crack and fail.



A 3 piece crossmember is for racing dudes that have to pull the pan to inspect the bottom end regularly. Not necessary for a street car.

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[flash]

i completely disagree!!! - it's only 250 bucks! an alignment can cost you that much, and you need one every time you drop the cross member - if you ever have a pan leak, or a bad rod bearing, or any other reason to drop the cross member, it has paid for itself - not doing it is just throwing money away - you WILL eventually need to drop that thing again

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[Greimann]

The crossmember is $300 and you still have to drop the steering rack. I guess you have to weigh the chance that you may have to go back in there 5 or 10 years from now to fix something else. Seems that fixing things right now would be a wiser use of the $300.



But this is Mr. Cloud's decision, not mine.

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[BruceWard]

I am with Dave & Raj on this one. There is no need to spend additional time and cost on replacing the crossmember.

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[flash]

i don't get that - this is basic logic really



it is ALWAYS a better idea to improve a design if you are preparing for the possibility of having to do the same thing twice - these cars leak - motor mounts fail frequently - he WILL be in there again at some point - the 300 bucks (it was 250 the last time i looked, and am pretty sure i could get that set up) is nothing compared to the very first time he has to get back in there - the saved alignment cost alone, an absolute must when removing the factory cross member, offsets the cost of the cross member



real case - ron had to drop that danged thing twice in one month, and has now had to do it again, and will have to do it one more time very soon - he could have saved himself hundreds of dollars already



do it once - do it right - don't go back



i will absolutely be doing this the very first time i have to drop mine - no question

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[flash]

ooh - and i had forgotten that ron was in there at least once before too - so, this is going to be at least his 5th time dropping that member - easily over a grand lost, and realistically, more likely 2 grand, for no real reason other than a poor economic decision

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[Greimann]

I think it would be worth a few phone calls to find a place that doesn't charge $300 for an alignment <img src="/forum/images/smilies/968/blink.gif" class="smilie" alt="" />

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[Eric_K]

Umm, if you going in to change motor mounts you will still have to drop the entire 3 piece crossmember. The 3 piece is only for getting at the oil pan easier. I would argue that an alignment isn't needed if you mark the position of the crossmember before removal and get it back in the same place. That may not be accurate enough for Flash but would work for most.



Eric

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[Dave]

Dropped the crossmember for rod bearings on the 944. Marked it up and replaced to the scribes...



Flung that car through at least one more track season, alignment was kind enough to remain intact.

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[flash]

yeah, the dealership charges 240 - i was basing the equality of cost on the older 250 price of the cross member - granted , i was able to negotiate a 140 price here at our favorite a;ignment shop, but still, the labor involved is silly, and i can't remember the last time i saw a real alignment tech at a dealership



in theory, you can mark the castor blocks and not have to do an alignment, and be ok - i spent extra time to get the marks just right the last time on ron's car, and it looks like it worked



you are right abotu not being good enough for me - i now have to go back in and get another alignment, because i have a tenth of a degree too much toe in the rear, and i want to add back a tenth of a degree negative camber in the front



none of that makes it make any sense not to change out the member - ron is a perfect case in point - 5 times removing that thing - each time would have been at least 2 hours less labor in and out - at even the lowest rate i've heard of, that would be nearly a grand



i can't believe we are even talking about this - it's such a no brainer

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[Eric_K]

You don't have to touch the castor blocks to remove the crossmember. The arms swing out of the way enough to drop the crossmember.



Eric

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[Eric_K]

Has Ron really needed to get to oil pan 5 times? Someone is doing something wrong.

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[flash]

seriously - he had it off twice for mounts, twice for the pan, and is going to need the pan down a third time soon - the pan job was done by the dealership both times - it is leaking again - they also blew it twice on the alignment and we had to get it done elsewhere



this is what i am talking about - not spending the small precautionary amount now, is like saying:



"nah, i don't need the clear bra - i'm ok with chips and dings"



"nah, cheap tires are good enough for me, i'll never need the grip"



"it's ok, i can park my car under that tree full of birds - i'm only going inside for a minute - they won't poop on it "



"i don't need to retension my belts every 10k - it doesn't matter that i am autocrossing the car - the manual says it's good for 30k"



"i haven't been sick a day in 20 years - what do i need health care for?"



i could go on forever with stuff like this



stuff is going to happen - the car is going to leak - you WILL be dropping that cross member again at some point - it's very cheap insurance - i really don't understand the problem or the mindset of not preparing for the eventuality

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[Greimann]

Thats 1 for and 4 against the crossmember.



Anyone else have some constructive suggestions on what Mr. Cloud should do while the area is disassembled?

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[Cloud9...68]

First of all, Merry Christmas, everybody, and thanks for the responses to my question. Sorry for late response; been pretty busy with the Holidays.



Wow, I didn't intend to stir up so much controversy with this question. Let me see if I understand: The advantage of the 3-piece cross-member is that it allows you to remove the oil pan without impacting the alignment, though from several of the responses, it sounds debatable whether an alignment is necessary, as long as you put the cross-member back in exactly the same position as it was in when you removed it.



But I was planning to do an alignment anyway, because my car needs new tires, and I want to make sure the alignment is correct before getting them. Then, as routine maintenance, I was planning to do an alignment every couple of years or so anyway, especially after I start running DEs, which I intend to do in '06. The last front end alignment I did (on another car) was $120.



Seeing as the pan has probably not been off in 13 years, I'm struggling to understand the logic in spending $300 on something that would provide insurance against something that would normally only have to be done once a decade or so. I can think of a lot of other things to spend $300 on for the 968 (removing every body ding, two of the Goodyear F1 GS-D3's, a chunk of a new exhaust, several much-needed new Snap-On tools, etc.), so I'm going to go with the majority on this one and stick with the stock cross-member. Although the Lindsey Racing unit does look very cool...



As far as other items, I took a look at the oil pan last night, and, while there's no sign of any drips, it is fairly well covered in sludge, particularly along the sides, so replacing the gasket seems like it might be a good idea. What do the rest of you think about this? Is there any downside? The previous owner switched from conventional to synthetic oil about three years ago, so is it possible that a leak developed along the oil pan gasket then, and it has since healed itself as the gasket "adapted" to the synthetic oil? Or am I over-thinking this?



And what about the power steering fluid lines? They are surprisingly expensive (Paragon has the high pressure side one for around $100, and the other one I think for $65, though this one is easily accessible without removing the cross-member).



How about the ground point on top of the bell housing? Is this any more accessible during the process of raising and lowering the motor to replace the mounts? Or would I be opening a can of worms, requiring the cleaning of all of the other ground points at the same time?



Those of you who have replaced your mounts recently (Mr. Greimann, I remember you saying you had done yours awhile back), any other inputs? What did you do at the same time that you're glad you did, or what didn't you do that you wish you had? Thanks; looking forward to see what you guys have to add.

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[josephsc]

Don't go cheap on the motor mounts -- people have reported premature failures on aftermarket or "OEM but not OE" mounts. Lindsey used to carry "Super Mounts" which some have reported good success with -- they've since replaced them with "Ultra Mounts". Do not get a solid mount unless you race or really like vibrations.



Personally, I wouldn't mess with the PS system unless it's already leaking.... but if you're going to, get a rebuilt rack and a new high pressure line, possibly a rebuilt pump as well (though I have yet to experience a pump failure...).



If you do the oil pan gasket -- I think this may also work for the 968 (same oil oan gasket as the 944, IIRC....): MySwiss's oil pan gasket retainer -- it's little thing to prevent the oil pan gasket from bulging out. Here's more info: Rennlist thread.



As for the cost of alignment -- doesn't that depend on whether you're getting all four done, or just the fronts?

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[Greimann]

I think you have made the right decision on the crossmember. It just doesn't pass the "smell test" when you boil it down to the risk vs benefit sceanario. Also remmember that you have to include shipping both ways on it because you have to return a core, so you are probably pushing $400 by the time it is all over.



The synthetic oil thing may have worked out like you said, but while the area is apart, good idea to pull the pan and inspect the oil pickup tube. A new gasket with the retainers like Joe illustrated should last you the entire life of the car.



Definitely get the OEM version of the motormounts. The only thing that I remember vividly about the process is that ratcheting box end wrenches were invaluable to get to some of the fasteners that are in tight places.

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[flash]

i just don't get the nickle and dime logic - oh well - when that thing comes down again, i'll be here shaking my head - i've seen it happen already, and wish we had done it right the first time - it's going to happen again - how many miles on your motor? how long before you yank the bottom end?



anything i can do to avoid spending another day going to the alignment shop is a no brainer to me - i've had 8 alignments in 2 years, and am headed for my ninth next week - neither the dealerships nor the shops here even have the right gear to do a proper alignment on this car - we found that out with ron's car - in his case, that means a minimum 2 day job to change mounts or fix a leak



this is a lot like not doing a valve job when you pull the head - that's just nuts to me



i think we might have gotten lucky on ron's car, by marking the castor blocks, but the jury is still out - a few thousanths of an inch off there and it would be easily a couple of tenths of a degree at the end - it is incredibly hard to "see" a couple of thousandths of an inch - maybe we got lucky - maybe we didn't - we are still going down for an alignment anyway to be sure - it's the smart thing to do - it's in the work instructions porsche wrote for the job - why would anybody second guess that?



but, it's your money - nuff said there



on the subject of alignment - do it at least every 10k miles - most manufacturers recommend every year - these suspensions are very pliable - there are rubber bushings everywhere - that's what makes them such nice road cars - however, they go out of position very quickly - a tenth of a degree in change can cost you 5000 miles of tire wear



also, you need to make it a 4 wheel, including ride height, not just front end alignment - again the changes here can make significant differences in tire wear and handling - for example, a mere .5 inch change in rear ride height results in a very large change in front camber and toe -



when doing it, set your alignment with you in the car, about 1/2 tank of gas, and the car loaded as it would normally be driven - this will give you your best shot at a "nominal" setting

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[Greimann]

[quote name='flash' date='Dec 26 2005, 10:57 AM'] 

i just don't get the nickle and dime logic - 

[right][post="13728"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right] [/quote]

As you shake your head the rest of us shake our head on what you consider sound financial advice. Close to a $400 crossmember does not justify the remote possibility that the pan will be down multiple times within the remainder of the owners possession of the car. Given a reasonable $100 alignment cost any any reputable shop with a Hunter machine, it just doesn't not add up. If the bearings are in question, replace them now. Only $130 a set.

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